30-04-2002 23:41									#1
	AI is stupid Support Apolyton

I'm playing on Monarch, and I've just repelled a huge invasion from the AI, with disgusting ease. Apparently the AI is programmed to take undefended cities first. I normally defend my border cities, and leave my inner cities undefended. The AI marches its infantry into my land, bypassing all of my other cities, rushing for the undefended cities. but as they approach I simply move my infantry back to the city they're getting closer to, and they go for the next undefended city. They were pretty deep in my territory after about 20 turns. And also loosing units through my artillery fire and cavalry follow up.

Anyone else notice this? They had two stacks of about 120 infantry invading. I had a total of about 50 infantry AND cavalry, and was easily able to hold them off, and whittle them down by about 1/4. Had I let the war go on, I probably would have defeated them.... but this was just WAY too easy.

	01-05-2002 00:39									#2
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I always wipe out the most of the offensive army of the computer players in the first turns of the war, after that it is very easy to crush them. I remeber one time when Idina seeked attacked me. Then sent a huge stack of units to one city I had in the hills. I though for sure I would lose the city, but to my I was shocked at how easly I was able to fend off the attacking forces and kill them all. I also just love it when I really small and week civ sneeks attacks you, and you go out and crush them within couple of turns, very sad. I have even had civs I though were my friends sneek attack me, and they are all dead now.

	01-05-2002 01:32									#3
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philosophile,

I think there's a balance between good gameplay and exploits. You can do this kind of thing with Privateer's too... the AI navies will chase you from the other side of the world.

I choose not to take advantage so much, except in limited ways. For instance, I once got an AI civ into a military alliance with me, and then stayed one step ahead of them in invading the target civ's territory... when we were finished, we were far away from my ally's territory, and I "shut the gate" on them with my reserves, and declared war. Not really an exploit I think, just devious strategy.

You're right, it's too easy to beat the AI with exploits, so I just avoid them... it's more fun.

R

	01-05-2002 03:49									#4
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AI armies also seem to be drawn like a magnet to undefended workers, artillery, and resource tiles.

It can be figured out fairly easily. I expected a greater advance in AI abilities in the over five years since Civ 2.

	01-05-2002 09:18									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle AI armies also seem to be drawn like a magnet to undefended workers, artillery, and resource tiles. It can be figured out fairly easily. I expected a greater advance in AI abilities in the over five years since Civ 2.

I agree. And the AI shouldn't cheat.

	01-05-2002 13:31									#6
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AI is definitely stupid. It can't think, and it can't act without formal instruction. Despite this, a better effort COULD have been made to make it harder to beat without letting it cheat.

	01-05-2002 15:26									#7
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Yeah, I don't use this exploit, but this is kinda mistake of Soren. Sure, AI should take undefended cities, but on occassions, it should just start pondering those outer defended cities, too.

	01-05-2002 15:34									#8
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However, I think it is better that the AI aims for the undefended cities instead of the Civ2-style where they could attack a heavy fortified city a hundreds of times, loosing a LOT of units but with no particular impact.

	01-05-2002 15:37									#9
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I'm not suggesting the stupid Civ 2 style. I just think AI needs more evaluation. Is there an average size outer city fortified with 3-4 units? Attack! Is there a size 23 city defended with one unit half the way through enemy land? Either get some Paratroopers right there, or hold off... don't go there, try to cut the enemy by smaller bites.

	01-05-2002 15:57									#10
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Solver, of course I understand, and I agree with your points. I wonder why the AI never uses paratroopers in Civ III, at least I´ve never seen it be used. In Civ II they actually used it somewhat smart, to take over undefended cities for example.

	01-05-2002 16:19									#11
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Flanker, read on the thtread why does AI prefer Paratroopers over Tanks. There are people who have seen the AI use lots of Paratroopers, and people who haven't seen the AI do so (like me, and likely you). Actually, Paratroopers are helpless vs. infantry fortified cities, so did also give them a hit points bonus and an attack increase, to make them more viable. With my mod, landing some Paratroopers near a city fortified by one Infantry is a very viable choice.

	01-05-2002 16:25									#12
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It would be nice if the AI would use a real strategy in stead of a bunch of loose easy-win strategies. It would be even nicer if each AI had different strategies!

But I'm afraid that we won't see such things till civ5.....

	01-05-2002 16:31									#13
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I got a more realistic approach to the AI. Programming the AI has to be the hardest part of programming job done in Civ 3. This is a game with so many possibilities, and everything, that the AI needs to evaluate everything, and for this, programmers must have taught it to do so.

Currently, the humankind hasn't actually developed THE AI. THE AI would think much like humans do, and construction of THE AI could only come after we actually discovered and understood how the human brain works. Currently, however, construction of THE AI is somewhat from the sci-fi area, and whatever we program is limited somewhat.

	01-05-2002 16:55									#14
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quote: Flanker, read on the thtread why does AI prefer Paratroopers over Tanks. There are people who have seen the AI use lots of Paratroopers, and people who haven't seen the AI do so (like me, and likely you). Actually, Paratroopers are helpless vs. infantry fortified cities, so did also give them a hit points bonus and an attack increase, to make them more viable. With my mod, landing some Paratroopers near a city fortified by one Infantry is a very viable choice.

Yes, I hadn´t read that before I replied, sorry for that. Maybe it´s just me that haven´t seen AI paratroopers action. Actually, I find it very rare that the AI even discovers advanced flight. I also modded my paratroopers slightly, so they just wouldn´t be sitting ducks on the battlefield. However, I´ve yet to find any really useful thing to do with them. In Civ II, they could at least attack directly after airdrop, and that made them useful in some situations. In Civ III, you might use them as a resourceblocker, but not for a long time since they will be under heavy attack directly after airdrop. And they are also hard to use on the field, when you just have captured some enemy cities and are moving deeper into enemy territory, and there are no cities with airports. However, they are cool so I use them. I often tend to use cool units instead of good units...

	01-05-2002 17:04									#15
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Flanker, you might want to give it A/D of 10/10, and, just as I did, increase the HP, say, a bonus of 2 HP would be good.

	01-05-2002 20:06									#16
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I got a more realistic approach to the AI. Programming the AI has to be the hardest part of programming job done in Civ 3. This is a game with so many possibilities, and everything, that the AI needs to evaluate everything, and for this, programmers must have taught it to do so.

Currently, the humankind hasn't actually developed THE AI. THE AI would think much like humans do, and construction of THE AI could only come after we actually discovered and understood how the human brain works. Currently, however, construction of THE AI is somewhat from the sci-fi area, and whatever we program is limited somewhat.

quote: I got a more realistic approach to the AI. Programming the AI has to be the hardest part of programming job done in Civ 3. This is a game with so many possibilities, and everything, that the AI needs to evaluate everything, and for this, programmers must have taught it to do so.

True... but at the very least they could have done something like they did in Alpha centauri... give the various factions a different AI or play style. That way there would be some variety in the game. But it seems pretty clear that the the AI is all the same for all the non player countries.

	01-05-2002 20:42									#17
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More play style, yes, could be. However, the AI of Civ 3 is far superior to any other in Civ games, including the stupid one in SMAC.

	01-05-2002 20:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by philosophile True... but at the very least they could have done something like they did in Alpha centauri... give the various factions a different AI or play style. That way there would be some variety in the game. But it seems pretty clear that the the AI is all the same for all the non player countries.

this is a classic AI programming trade-off issue. Should we make 16 unique AI's and then have to debug/test each one? Or should we write one fantastic AI which will make the leaders all feel the same? Of course, Civ3 did something in the middle and so did SMAC. However, Civ3 was closer to the latter while SMAC was closer to the former. And I would posit that both succeeded in certain areas... the Civ3 AI is more effective; the SMAC AI is more varied. There is no "right" answer unless one has unlimited development time.

	01-05-2002 20:59									#19
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Very good point Soren (how much I like to see which thread do you read ). I must say I prefer the Civ 3 way over the SMAC way.

BTW now that I know you read this thread , would you please make one improvement to your AI that is really easy to implement - have it upgrade its units! Eh?

	01-05-2002 22:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Very good point Soren (how much I like to see which thread do you read ). I must say I prefer the Civ 3 way over the SMAC way. BTW now that I know you read this thread , would you please make one improvement to your AI that is really easy to implement - have it upgrade its units! Eh?

hmmm... I improved the unit upgrading of the AI quite a bit via the first couple patches, and I have not heard too many complaints since. Sometimes, of course, the AI just has no money. If other people are experiencing similar issues, I could take another look.

	01-05-2002 22:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis hmmm... I improved the unit upgrading of the AI quite a bit via the first couple patches, and I have not heard too many complaints since. Sometimes, of course, the AI just has no money. If other people are experiencing similar issues, I could take another look.

i've seen the AI upgrade tons of units. try my best to keep all the AIs poor so they cant upgrade. Love getting my tanks killed by those spearmen.... maybe i should let those tank killin spearmen upgrade

	01-05-2002 22:42									#22
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I've had no problems with upgrading so far. I've seen spearmen upgraded to pikemen in a city I was about to lay seige to - I don't know if it knew that it should upgrade there first, but it was quite impressive. Also, my powerful neighbor, France, has been milling around my borders with a hundred or so infantry, which I suspect they upgraded to.

	01-05-2002 22:53									#23
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It's just that some civs seem to have an unhealthy attraction for their UU. In one of my games, France is in the modern age, but still keeps musketeers alongside their mech inf. (although not any other ancient units). The Greeks liek to keep Hoplites as long as possible, and I've steamrolled a Greek nation in the industrial era that used both inf and hoplites... but he had money, beacuse when I negotiated peace (too much war weariness) I saw his treasury with about 2500 gold. Surely that can upgrade something...

	01-05-2002 22:55									#24
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Soren, why not program AI to optimize tax sliders better?

Like puting tax to 90% from time to time and buy techs from other AIs, and to make some embassies, or upgrade units.

Or give some sort of restricton to NEVR drop gold reserve from some value by rushing or buying tech (so he could use it for other means, like Wall Street, spying or unit upgrade).

	01-05-2002 23:45									#25
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There is also one strange way of AI which builds too much Mech. Inf., Infantry, Riflemen and too little Cavalry and Tanks.

Anyway Soren,
How does AI decides which unit too chose to build.
(This is IMPORTANT for MODmakers!)

Could you post a short version of algoritm here?

	02-05-2002 02:00									#26
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I have had several games where the AI could have crushed me at some point if it had only learned to use the Artillery unit. I know it's annoying having 30 AI ships bombard your shores for 10 minutes every turn, and having the AI learn to use artillery would probably produce a similar annoyance. But it would drastically improve its war making ability if it would only build and use artillery in an expanded manner.

I see the AI walk through my territory endlessly with a settler and a rifleman in search of that one empty square. The AI should be able to pair it's artillery with a couple of defensive units and start making trouble. Right now it's a yawn to beat militarily on any game level (except emperor, and that's not from its skill but because it cheats and makes endless hoards).

-Apolex

	02-05-2002 06:11									#27
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Yea, it definately is. Also, if their army is larger than yours (never mind the fact that their 'larger army' is made up of spearman and swordsman, while yours is entirely riflemen and artillery), they attack en masse to your weakest city. Making it easy to have some men defend the area, while sending a few armies to take over half their territory, that they neglected to defend.

	02-05-2002 11:26									#28
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Umm, maybe I haven't seen it upgrading enough. Mostly, I have attacked Spearmen by Longbowmen - the AI seemed a bit slow about getting Pikemen in, but really, the world's biggest nations are OK at upgrading.

BTW Soren, I have yesterday experienced a very strange AI glitch with my first 1.21 game, I'll try to tell later.

	02-05-2002 13:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis hmmm... I improved the unit upgrading of the AI quite a bit via the first couple patches, and I have not heard too many complaints since. Sometimes, of course, the AI just has no money. If other people are experiencing similar issues, I could take another look.

ai now upgrades very well and throws massive modern armies at me. actually, it upgrades as soon as possible.

as for the empty city exploit - well it IS actually rather easy to decimate infantry-only army with a lot of arty and well-developed railroad network, even without an exploit.

	02-05-2002 13:23									#30
	Empty city exploit? Remove this text

I haven't noticed this, in my last war with the Japanese I had empty citys and they didn't rush for them, they hit my border citys.