01-05-2002 09:27									#1
	Nuclear Subs/Stealth fighters Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is it just me, or does it seem these two units are seriously underpowered?

My Stealth fighters tend to get shot down a LOT (esp. by bombers if they are set on intercept mode in cities. WTF?). Then, on bombing runs they are usually pretty ineffective, maybe hitting the targets 1 time in 5.

And the Nuke subs! Aigh, these should be, with the AEGIS, the kings of the sea! But if they attack ANYTHING they usually take massive damage, and if it's an AEGIS or a Battleship, they usually die. This seems really unrealistic to me. Also, I don't like that enemy bombers can attack my subs. What's the point of their being submersibles if they are subject to arial attacks?!

	01-05-2002 09:28									#2
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Intercepted by Bombers? Your bic file is corrupt.

	01-05-2002 09:32									#3
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I mean, I put the fighters on intercept mode in a city. When an enemy comes to bomb it, almost always their bomber destroys my fighter. I think that's BS.

	01-05-2002 10:39									#4
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The power of these units is still too low, but does firaxis listen...

	01-05-2002 11:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Also, I don't like that enemy bombers can attack my subs. What's the point of their being submersibles if they are subject to arial attacks?!

Ask the Germans if planes could sink subs...

	01-05-2002 11:30									#6
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They could, and I'm not even german!

	01-05-2002 12:06									#7
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Stealth fighters, just like the real-life F-117 stealth fighter, have no intercept capability. They are really 'stealth light bombers'.

	01-05-2002 12:17									#8
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did you edit your bic file? stealth fighters should not have intercept, and if you did give stealth fighters the intercept command, unless you give them some attack they will always lose since they have a zero attack rating and bombers have a 2 defense rating

hope that helps

	01-05-2002 15:22									#9
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I have done very good changes, IMO, to all subs, also thusly affecting the Cruise Missle. My Nuke Subs carry up to 3 Tactical Nukes - they're pretty weak, but 3 Nukes is something.

My Subs carry one tactical nuke OR Cruise Missle. My Battleships can carry up to two Cruise Missles, and Destroyers carry one Cruise Missle. Maybe I should change this to AEGIS...

Cruise Missiles are slightly strengthened, and given teh ability to precision strikes, too, making them somewhat much more effective.

	01-05-2002 15:29									#10
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quote: Also, I don't like that enemy bombers can attack my subs. What's the point of their being submersibles if they are subject to arial attacks?!

Well, there are really a lot of ASW-aircraft, almost every nation with a decent military strenght has a few. So I donīt think that is really a unrealistic thing. However, it twistes gameplay somewhat, doing the subs less worthwhile. I donīt think subs are that good, but they are so cool I use them anyway.

	01-05-2002 15:31									#11
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Right, cool .

Especially after the Lethal Bombardment has came, I'm eagerly awaiting some kind of an anti-air sea unit, an ability for units to shoot down planes.

What about giving a sea unit the Air Superiority flag? Anyone tried this out?

	01-05-2002 18:48									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Flanker Well, there are really a lot of ASW-aircraft, almost every nation with a decent military strenght has a few. So I donīt think that is really a unrealistic thing. However, it twistes gameplay somewhat, doing the subs less worthwhile. I donīt think subs are that good, but they are so cool I use them anyway.

I can see Stealth Bombers/Fighters being able to do this, but not the old WWII era bombers, at least not against nuke subs.

Also, shouldn't some of the sea units be able to shoot down aircraft? Like the AEGIS?

Thanks everyone for the info on the Stealth fighter. I think it's basically useless. Either use a stlth bomber or the jet fighter.

I would like to see the nuke sub be more potent, so I may adjust it like Solver did (except, I don't use nukes, so would make them cruise missile carriers).

	01-05-2002 18:59									#13
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Boris, if you don't use Nukes, you can still make it possible for the Nuke Sub to hold both Cruise Missiles and Nukes.

	01-05-2002 19:07									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Boris, if you don't use Nukes, you can still make it possible for the Nuke Sub to hold both Cruise Missiles and Nukes.

Hmmm...see, I just *choose* not to use nukes, but I don't edit them from the game. I don't know if I like the idea of other civs having that kind of power if the decide to carry nukes! LOL.

	01-05-2002 19:15									#15
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Interesting Rule about the Nukes. Well, I was nuked in Civ 3, and not that it was too pleasant, sure I still wish nukes had larger effect.

	01-05-2002 19:39									#16
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During the nuke age I had a massive World War in which all civs were involved on one of two sides. My side was Germany (me)-Persia-Russia-Rome-China-Zulu-Aztec vs. America-Japan-India-Babylon-France-Greece.

America, Persia, India and myself all had nukes in our arsenal, but nobody ever used them. I guess it was deterrence?

	01-05-2002 20:45									#17
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It can be... if the AI fears a nuclear war, Nukes will be deterrent (much like real life), if not, it will feel free to drop Nukes. Maybe it didn't want the allies to declare war on it. However, when I was allied with 3 civs vs 2 others, and used Nukes, my allies were very happy.

	06-05-2002 04:15									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Solver It can be... if the AI fears a nuclear war, Nukes will be deterrent (much like real life), if not, it will feel free to drop Nukes. Maybe it didn't want the allies to declare war on it. However, when I was allied with 3 civs vs 2 others, and used Nukes, my allies were very happy.

hi ,

true , seen the AI use a sub , lol , in the editor i made the nuke sub's to cary 8 , that was fun , ....... he got 5 on my city's , of course i had the missile shield , so much for that , .........

of course needless to say , the ai , will not clean pollution from a nuke , that is if you drop one or a dozen on them , ....., however i seen 2 out of 3 that if the ai uses a nuke and captures the city he does clean up , strange , .....

the range on the stealth should be some where like 36 or so , .....firaxis , please , ....

have a nice day

	06-05-2002 04:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I can see Stealth Bombers/Fighters being able to do this, but not the old WWII era bombers

I refer you to my earlier advice.

quote: Ask the Germans if planes could sink subs...

	06-05-2002 05:24									#20
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I went for the victory over the war when I had nukes. But I did test them . . . and they were weak. Nevertheless, all of my enemies declared war on me which was only one nation. And they were making me mad anyway, and I had a bunch of cruise missiles on the boarder.

	06-05-2002 06:48									#21
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nuclear subs are only for carrying tactical nukes in my games. that pesky SDI annoys me to no end.

in MP i bet you'll see a rise in tactical nukage.

	06-05-2002 06:57									#22
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quote: Originally posted by SSBLoveU I went for the victory over the war when I had nukes. But I did test them . . . and they were weak. Nevertheless, all of my enemies declared war on me which was only one nation. And they were making me mad anyway, and I had a bunch of cruise missiles on the boarder.

the nations only get really mad at you if the attack was unprovoked. they'll get mad (to a lesser extent) if it WAS provoked (prolonged war or enemy nuked someone), or if they are friends of the enemy.

if the nuked civ has nuked a few people, or the whole world is mad at them (not even at war with them) they'll probably be ok with it.

in one game egypt was the largest civ, and no one was at war with them, but no body liked them. i went on a "nuclear holocaust" dropping something like 50 icbms and 30 tactical nukes, and no one was mad at me but egypt.

	06-05-2002 16:21									#23
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Holy crap Uber, 50 ICBMs, damnation.

I would say that the AI is semi-predictable when it comes to nuclear war. Up until the last game, it seemed that I had to really nuke first before they nuked me. The last game I played was a bit different. The map was down to 4 Civs, myself (Babylonians), Japanese, Chinese, and the Romans.

I was at war with both the Japanese and Chinese. I had 2 tactical nukes and China and Japan both had 1 ICBM each. Sort of a deterrence or something like that but I was only a few turns out on Satellites as well. I send a squad of Modern Armor over to the Japanese/Chinese continent landing on a mountain. I attack a Chinese village the next turn and wham, a nuclear strike comes in.

So, of course I nuke the Japanese in response (when it was really the Chinese) who launched. A couple of turns later I get nuked again. Damnation. By that time, I nuked the Chinese 3 times for payback for the first and then managed to get Japan to sign to a peace treaty.

I wish the Civs would do the whole "We have nuclear weapons" bit from Civ1/Civ2 when doing diplomacy.

** Back to the original point of the thread though

I do agree that nuclear subs are way underpowered. I lost 2 nuclear subs to ironclads. Ironclads I tell you! WTF, that seems pretty much impossible, even more so than the spearman/tank debate. However, I must say China was kicking my battleships all around the planet with their subs. Justice I tell you, justice, where is it at? Eheheheh.

Seriously though, that is more what I would expect. The nuclear sub should be a fairly potent threat such that it would have a pretty good chance (50/50 or better) of defeating your average battleship/destroyer/etc.

	06-05-2002 17:18									#24
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hi ,

here is one thing ; "peace through power" , even if you have 10 cities , if you have lets say 50 icbm's they comp will think twice , even if the comp has no way of knowing this , ..........

have a nice day

Last edited by panag on 10-05-2002 at 19:57

	10-05-2002 05:19									#25
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My subs run silent and deep. They do not bug me. They may pick on me through. But when I am powerful, they leave me alone. So, I just examine their coastlines.

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the nations only get really mad at you if the attack was unprovoked. they'll get mad (to a lesser extent) if it WAS provoked (prolonged war or enemy nuked someone), or if they are friends of the enemy. if the nuked civ has nuked a few people, or the whole world is mad at them (not even at war with them) they'll probably be ok with it. in one game egypt was the largest civ, and no one was at war with them, but no body liked them. i went on a "nuclear holocaust" dropping something like 50 icbms and 30 tactical nukes, and no one was mad at me but egypt.

	10-05-2002 08:28									#26
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"
What about giving a sea unit the Air Superiority flag? Anyone tried this out?"

Ya don't need it as you already have carriers. Its a nice reason to make a carrier valuable and reflect their true importance at sea.

	12-05-2002 23:55									#27
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At this point, the game is almost over, and unless you can only have a battle victory . . . it is all over. The problems with a cheating AI who only trades with AI and supermean people are other problems in higher levels. Longer times at this level with a peace treaty victory would be a nice option too.

	13-05-2002 01:56									#28
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , here is one thing ; "peace through power" , even if you have 10 cities , if you have lets say 50 icbm's they comp will think twice , even if the comp has no way of knowing this , .......... have a nice day

Agreed. Interesting side note. I my last game I started a nuclear war and the whole world ganged up on me. However, shortly after the war began I nuked Rome with 2 tactical nukes and immediately asked them for peace. They agreed! Maybe it was because they thought that I'd continue to keep nuking them?

	13-05-2002 03:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Agreed. Interesting side note. I my last game I started a nuclear war and the whole world ganged up on me. However, shortly after the war began I nuked Rome with 2 tactical nukes and immediately asked them for peace. They agreed! Maybe it was because they thought that I'd continue to keep nuking them?

hi ,

right , you have to be carefull with this , it could be they say yes , and after a few turns , bang , surprise they have nukes to , ....

it all comes down a bit like playing poker , and ya dont know what is around the corner , .........

have a nice day

	13-05-2002 15:35									#30
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , here is one thing ; "peace through power" , even if you have 10 cities , if you have lets say 50 icbm's they comp will think twice , even if the comp has no way of knowing this , .......... have a nice day

the comp might i they have spies.... just like we know their military if we have spies in their capitals!!