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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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2205 sent to DD.
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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Are stealth elections now in vogue?
Pfft!!
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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Furthermore, riddle me this, Batman!
How is it that Hive's base screens show commerce income from a Spartan Pact, yet the Hive faction profile accessed through the commlink does not show the Pact?
The only time I have seen this anamoly, that I recall, is when two players are pacted from the outset of a game, as in a team game...or when use of the commlinks is made prior to in-game contact.
An explanation is due here. First for the pact, moreso for the contact, more again as to how DD had the Hive comm to call this stealth election.
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smhfan86
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An election?
When did this happen?
To my knowledge, the caller of the election must post all vote totals for all players. And each subsequent player must post who they voted for.
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DilithiumDad
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Election must be announced on thread, which it was. I voted for myself and Fromage stated both he and Claw voted for me (stated that I had all votes so far). University has not stated who they voted for.
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smhfan86
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True, but you must list the number of votes for each player, so everyone has a fair chance to decide before they play the turn.
I would also like to know how KK and Fromage could have a pact, but not have it listed in the commlink profiles.
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KrysiasKrusader
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Commander of Corazon's Own Elite Guard
Apr 2002
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mongoose
Are stealth elections now in vogue?
Pfft!!
Furthermore, riddle me this, Batman!
How is it that Hive's base screens show commerce income from a Spartan Pact, yet the Hive faction profile accessed through the commlink does not show the Pact?
The only time I have seen this anamoly, that I recall, is when two players are pacted from the outset of a game, as in a team game...or when use of the commlinks is made prior to in-game contact.
An explanation is due here. First for the pact, moreso for the contact, more again as to how DD had the Hive comm to call this stealth election. |
I've gone back through my note's; and I can't find by what rules/parameters we are playing by exactly. As far as I know (if I recall correctly), claw919 is the "CMN" and he laid down the rule(s) in an e-mail, mailed to all the original players, back in April 2002.
So for 'stealth elections', I suppose that DD wasen't advised of the rules/parameters that we had to post the results, turn by turn, If indeed that is what we have to do.
I still don't know who 'Batman' is supposed to be.
In my screen of the Hive faction profile; it shows that we are pacted. For how long have you noticed this ? My oldest turn on record is 2202, I have checked them all.
As for the eplanation(s)... I don't see why I have to explain my reasons for pacting with the Hive anymore than I would expect you to explain your reasons for pacting with the Morganites or UoP. Especially in a public forum! C'mon Mongoose... 
For the contact, the same would apply here also, no?
Since I'm at it, and I don't mean to speak for DilithiumDad, but how come he would also feel obliged to divulge this in a public forum, is also beyond my comprehension.
Or am I missing something and/or other information here... 
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smhfan86
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I have the EG, and when I checked, it said you two had not made contact yet, i.e. when I checked both your profiles, it did not register that you two had a pact, yet you two were definitely getting energy from it.
So it's a question of who contacted who, and how? Not why.
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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I don't give two shakes of a rat's ass for why, KK. The question is how. Neither you nor Hive have the EG. Unless you met in-game, you should not be able to form a pact. If you did meet in-game, the pact status should show on Hive's infiltrated faction profile. It does not.
That is the how I seek. No silly winking eye addresses this very key issue. If you have not met in-game, not only is the pact between Hive and Sparta illegal, the subsequent passage of the Hive commlink to DD is illegal and the election could not be legally called.
This from a letter I wrote to CDS after my 2201 turn, which was the first I noticed the situation:
This is decidedly odd. I can offer the Hive commlink to KK in the diplomacy box. My infiltration on Hive shows no status between Hive and Sparta. Yet, several of Hive's base screens show commerce income from a Spartan Pact. -snip-
I conclude that the Pact between Sparta and Hive was just signed and that the infiltration data doesn't get updated until the turn year rolls over.
No idea how I can still offer the commlink, though.
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Fromage
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If I remember correctly, I saw Spartan ship at sea sometimes in 2200-2202, I contacted him at the same turn and we made treaty. I can check if I still have that old save-files when I get home.
Elections, I think the person who calls the election should email details for everyone. At least this is the rule in other game I am playing now. Anyway, I don't think Mongoose lost any votes because of this yet. I think he has a pact with Claw and I usually won't vote people who I am fighting with.
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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Seeing a ship does not constitute contact. You must be adjacent. If contact is made, the diplomatic status changes to truce...except sometimes with probeships.
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Claw919
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Ugh. I'm the CMN, I suppose. 
Okay, hang on a second. Let's deal with the issues one at a time. First, let's deal with the Fromage-KK comm issue (as we have been).
Here are my thoughts. Debate away.
KK/Fromage - were you two ever *ADJACENT*? If not, there's an issue, since the rule is you need to be adjacent to make contact. (Or had the commlink transferred from CMH, or another player). If you weren't adjacent, then there needs to be.... something done to rectify the energy credit situation. The way I see it, your estimates put the Pact life at (at maximum) 6 turns at present. You should reopen your turns and see how many energy credits you're *CURRENTLY* earning from the Pact and do the multiplication. That amount should probably be split between the other factions in terms of an energy exchange, and your Pact should be broken.
On the other hand, if you were adjacent or had the commlink passed to you, everything is fine and it's just (another) glitch in the game.
Obviously, there can't have been a ton of game-wide damage done from the Pact (this vote aside). I'm fairly confident everyone in the game knows exactly what is currently happening at/to the Hive. (At the very least, they would expect it, given who has brought forth these charges).
Again, let's deal with the Pact issue first, and then proceed with the voting issue, since they're obviously tied. Please hold the turn until suchtime as everyone is agreed that we're ready to proceed.
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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Dave, there is also the issue of more techs than I can count having been passed to Hive. Also, the research derivative of the commerce.
I don't want to address remedies yet...I'm very depressed acbout all this.
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MariOne
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Erewhon in Neverland
May 1999
time: 06:13
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Sorry if I interlope where I don't belong, but I'm killing time away as in mid August nothing happens at work, and my attention was drawn to this thread, which I presume originated smhfan's commlinks thread in this forum.
I just offer my humble .02€ CMN expertise, without any comment on the assumptions/intentions/suppositions you all had about real or virtual contacts, and not wanting to step in the least in the way of the official CMN here.
Many of the players here know me anyway one way or the other (hi Fromage, I'm your CMN MoSe @ACOL, I guess you indirectly mentioned me about the "other game" e-mail council broadcasting... ).
- without any of the two possessing the EG, if someone (namely Mong) can offer Hive's commlink to KK, this is conclusive proof that KK lacks Hive's Frequency, THUS that also Hive lacks KK's Frequency, and that neither could legally contact each other in-game, not even mentioning sealing any deal or exchange or entertaining any relationship.
- OTOH, even if you play with the default setting that displays all human commlinks in a pbem before contact, this setting does NOT allow to call the 1st council, and the factions do NOT gain True Frequencies (*required* to call the 1st council) just by talking, *not even* when one of the two does it legally thatnks to the EG (which is not the case here anyway).
You're STILL required to actually have all the *True Frequencies* to call the 1st council.
THUS, if DD could call the 1st council, this is ALSO conclusive proof that he HAD obtained all the required True Frequencies when he did it, "SOMEHOW", but anyway legally. Because you can't gain a frequency "illegally"... except in a trade with someone you couldn't legally talk with, but this is up to DD to clarify and rule out.
- The only way I see the illegal Hive-KK contact having influenced the election, is by Hive having (illegally) passed DD's freq to KK or viceversa KK having passed DD's freq to the Hive.
Unless this happened, the benefits spawned by the illegal contact (Pact, trades, etc...) and the procedural issue about the elections, are two separated issues, and the right to call the election itself is not under question.
Having taken the daring freedom to disturb you and mingle with your own private affairs, I am of course now obliged to offer you any service you should require me... but I trust you're able to sort out your issues on your own, in which case glad if I have been of any help.
Cheers!
MoSe
EDITed just a couple of unreadable typos... (I left the readable ones in
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MariOne
- without any of the two possessing the EG, if someone (namely Mong) can offer Hive's commlink to KK, this is conclusive proof that KK lacks Hive's Frequency, THUS that also Hive lacks KK's Frequency, and that neither could legally contact each other in-game, not even mentioning sealing any deal or exchange or entertaining any relationship.
- OTOH, even if you play with the default setting that displays all human commlinks in a pbem before contact, this setting does NOT allow to call the 1st council, and the factions do NOT gain True Frequencies (*required* to call the 1st council) just by talking, *not even* when one of the two does it legally thatnks to the EG (which is not the case here anyway).
You're STILL required to actually have all the *True Frequencies* to call the 1st council.
THUS, if DD could call the 1st council, this is ALSO conclusive proof that he HAD obtained all the required True Frequencies when he did it, "SOMEHOW", but anyway legally. Because you can't gain a frequency "illegally"... except in a trade with someone you couldn't legally talk with, but this is up to DD to clarify and rule out.
- The only way I see the illegal Hive-KK contact having influenced the election, is by Hive having (illegally) passed DD's freq to KK or viceversa KK having passed DD's freq to the Hive.
Unless this happened, the benefits spawned by the illegal contact (Pact, trades, etc...) and the procedural issue about the elections, are two separated issues, and the right to call the election itself is not under question. my emphasis added here
...snip...
Cheers!
MoSe
EDITed just a couple of unreadable typos... (I left the readable ones in |
Point taken, MariOne. There are two issues here:
1) the illegal pact
2) the legality of the acquisition of the Hive commlink by DD
If (2) cannot be proved, the turn will have to be replayed from DD's 2205 when he called the election.
Assuming that legality can indeed be proved, we must address the consequences of the illegal pact.
Commlinks aside for the time being, the consequences of this pact are conmmerce for Sparta and Hive, techs that either may have obtained from the other and units that might have been built or SE choices that might have been taken after being enabled by those techs.
The commerce issue and derivative research and ec is perhaps the easiest to remedy, albeit not perfectly. I believe this pact to have been consumated in the Hive 2202 turn. This is now the fifth turn that commerce has been accruing to Hive and Sparta that should not have been. I disagree with Dave about either of the two having to make monetary payments to other factions. Nobody should profit from this pact; spreading the profit merely rewards more players for the illegality. I suggest that the Hive-Sparta relationship be downgraded to truce by mutual action of the two players in the diplomacy window. If it cannot be set to
truce, then to treaty. If it can be set to truce, then that status should not be altered until 5 turns after such alteration can legally be done. If it can only be set to treaty, then future alteration must wait a sum of 10 turns plus a turn for every turn between now and the legal turn. In case that is confusing...if this election can transpire now, the legal turn becomes the Spartan 2206. The treaty would have to be maintained until the Spartan 2216, when it could be upgraded to Pact. If this election cannot take place now, let us assume that Sparta makes actual contact with Hive in 2209. If so, the legal turn becomes the Spartan 2210, the pact gets downgraded to treaty now, in 2206 and the treaty can be upgraded to Pact in the Spartan 2224 turn. Were the number of bases and the energy production of those bases frozen at current levels , this would closely equalize the gross commerce flows to each party over the time frame. Since number of bases and energy production change over time, the effect will not be so equal to what should have been...consider it a penalty for disregarding the contact rule.
The tech passage issue is much trickier. Techs cannot be unlearned. If the election is permissible this turn, only actions taken in the interval between 2202 and now are at issue. Most important is the Hive acquisiton
of planetary networks and their subsequent switch to PLANNED and construction of probes and the Hive acquisition of Synthetic Fuels and Secrets of the Human Brain.
The remedy I sugest for this may seem harsh, but here it is:
All probes of both Hive and Sparta are to be immediately dibanded in the open, without mineral accrual to any object under construction. It takes two to tango, as the saying goes, and KK should well have known he didn't have contact. It is fitting that he pay some penalty as well as Fromage. Hive, of course, is prohibited form constructing any probes until after he can legally obtain Planetary Networks, which would be next turn if this election goes forward. Furthermore, Hive must immediately change his Economic SE from PLANNED to SIMPLE, selling whatever facilities are necessary to make the change. He should replay the 2206 so as to accomplish that change in this turn.
All Hive units with trance ability must be immediately upgraded to non-trance designs or disbanded. Further trance units cannot be built until Brain can be legally obtained. The same for Missile units, though Fromage hadn't begun construction of any as late as his 2205, so any alteration to construction choices for those units can be accomplished at no cost when he replays the 2206.
I am willing to accept slight alterations in this, but only slight ones. I suggest MariOne might act as arbiter in the case we cannot reach agreement.
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smhfan86
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Personally, I don't think Mong's suggestions are harsh enough.
The techs obtained turned the tide completely for Fromage, turning him from nothing, to a nasty military juggernaught.
Probe teams, planned for hive, trance, energy, SFF, Hi Energy Chem(combined with free perimeters), etc, make him much more powerful than he ought to be.
I find it difficult to continue, but will if harsh enough punishments and compensation are made, possibly even going back several turns, but even in that case, KK and Fromage will simply seek each other out quickly to make actual contact.
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Fromage
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If I replay 2206, I haven't given any techs or com frequencys to anyone. So Spartans or anyone else didn't get anything out of the pact, so IMHO they shouldn't get any sanctions.
About my Hive then, I can chance planned to simple and dowgrade the trance units. That's ok.
Anyway, it has been clear from the first turn I played that Hive won't be alive much longer. When Mongoose attacked and now these sanctions, you propably shouldn't worry too much about this. Couple of Hive cities with scout infantries propably won't affect much on the overall situation.
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Fromage
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Smhfan86, if I remeber correctly, I have destroyed all of you mind worms with speeders or scout infantries. No trance unit or any unit with plasma armour has never seen any combat. I only used those units that were in my cities in 2199.
Probe teams, I have used only one of those in last turn. If we replay 2206, there haven't been no probe teams in action.
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smhfan86
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the reason why you haven't seen any more of my mindworms, is cuz I pulled them back, realizing they were no use against your newly acquired trance units.
if KK hadn't given you all those techs, including secrets, be assured, I woulda brought them down on you instead of pulling them back.
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Fromage
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You really had quite a army then. I thought when I killed about 6-7 mind worms, it would have slowed you down a bit. I had no idea that one trance unit / two cities would stop any assault.
Anyway, you will have a decent chance again when I will downgrade those units.
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Mongoose
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Harrisburg,PA USA
Apr 1999
time: 00:13
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We have found a problem, KK. Your pact with Hive is illegal. Only you and Fromage could prove or assert otherwise, and we have heard from both of you. Neither of you has made the assertion that it should stand.
My patience runs at a low ebb between the pact, DD's sly election call, being castigated for an attitude when objecting to all of this and your bedamned winking smilies.
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12-08-2002 08:39
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