17-08-2002 13:25									#391
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quote: Originally posted by smhfan86 oh, if fromage has stolen a map or gained infiltration, that's foreknowledge that he and his allies shouldn't have. so we must take that into account too, because simply replaying from before doesn't erase that info from memory.

Well, actually Beliver's rover killed one probe in 2205. Second/last probe team reached Beliver city in 2206 and stole one tech. If we replay from 2205, those probe teams didn't have any effect.

	17-08-2002 13:36									#392
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no effect, as in you'll destroy them before we have to, right?

	17-08-2002 13:39									#393
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quote: Originally posted by smhfan86 If someone's contacting you and doesn't say how, when or where, then ask and verify. This could have all been avoided if that was followed.

When I contacted Sparta, I offered treaty and said in diplomatic window: "Greeting. I can see your foil on my coast. Nice to see..."

Kk just didn't notice that

	17-08-2002 13:41									#394
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quote: Originally posted by smhfan86 no effect, as in you'll destroy them before we have to, right?

Right. (I think I said this allready couple of times)

	17-08-2002 13:51									#395
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Interesting info Fromage.

	17-08-2002 21:53									#396
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I've been monitoring the progress for a few days now and to honest I've think the best way to solve this would be within the game itself. Like in real life when some nation accuse some other nation for violation for some kind of rule or something they make demands or put economic restraints and so forth. Why not put real life diplomacy in act. Those who thinks other have been wrongdoing could join together in a pact to force sanctions. If they refuse make to pay. This way everything would be more interesting.

........ or you could just replay a few turns. I don't think you ever can compensate retrospective.

	17-08-2002 23:00									#397
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I'm not the CMN of this game (nor any other, at present). In fairness, I explained it that way to KK when the game was being formed - since he was relatively new at PBeM and didn't really understand how that sort of thing worked.

Anyone who knows me knows I go beyond fair in trying to resolve this sort of thing - especially when I've already invested 3 months of my life (or more) in something. I'd much rather see a game come to a conclusion where I end up losing than have it simply die.

Whatever the case, I'm VERY tired of debating about what vote to take. I already tried to get a majority agreement on something (and, as far as I can tell, succeeded) - that, apparently, didn't work out. Fine. I'm fine with MariOne imposing sanctions (even though I have no idea who MariOne is) as long as it means the game will continue.

Knowhow2 - The problem with your solution is that the world is already roughly divided in half, politically. Those on one side will support one thing, and those on the other side won't - and that'll be the end of it. It also opens the door to an "anything goes" approach - and I can't abide cheating in any form. If I even suspect someone is cheating in a game, I walk. Simple as that. I don't think Fromage and KK intended to cheat - rather, both are relatively inexperienced at multiplayer and simply weren't careful enough. Fair enough... we all make mistakes.

The question now is how to proceed. I don't care. I halfheartedly tried to lead an initiative, and it was ignored - so I won't try again. Mongoose suggested having MariOne (or Knowhow2) decide, and I'm fine with that. Call it 2 votes for that proposal.

Beyond that, like I said, I grow weary of this debate. If we replayed from 6 turns ago, this would all be undone (again, except for the surprise elements of the attacks by Mongoose and Smhfan - admittedly to their detriment). Will it ultimately alter the outcome? Probably not. I don't see Fromage being able to fend both off on their own. Those who know of the situation and are going to be getting involved will simply probably do it sooner rather than later (again, to Mong and Smhfan's detriment).

Whatever. Consider me 'for' one of the following. If someone else has a proposal that 6 of you agree to, consider me 'for' it too - but I won't debate the finer points any longer:

1) Having Knowhow2 or MariOne decide on sanctions (first come first serve, if they're willing - I would appreciate either effort)

2) Replaying 6 turns

3) The guidelines set by Mong on the previous page.

...that's it. Let me further say that if one of the people being sanctioned doesn't think they can live with the decision, BOW OUT NOW. I will personally be rather upset (and will voice same) if someone bows out 3 turns after the decision has been made, and all this was for nothing.

So if you have a serious proposal, better bring it now. If you have something serious to say AGAINST the proposal, bring that now too.

Sorry for the harshness - but seriously. It's an annoying inconvenience when we have to do this in the first place... but bloody frustrating when it goes on forever.

Claw919

	17-08-2002 23:44									#398
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I would like to continue allready. Is it 2199, 2202 or 2205, I don't care. Lets just play.

I think 2205 was fine with everyone? So it's DD's turn, so he could play it and sent it forward.

	17-08-2002 23:47									#399
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knowhow2 is already holding the passwords.

If he we're to accept the position of CMN for this game (although not an enviable one, I must admit), I will abide by his decision(s) / ruling(s).

Krysia's Krusader

	18-08-2002 00:08									#400
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Considered how much emotions this game already seems to have brought to the surface it probably would be a tough one to CMN, but I'm up for it if all the players in this game agree on letting me rule/decide/bring a solution to this matter.

However since MariOne seems to have a good (better) insight than me I would appreciate his opinon in this matter before any ruling. If possible.

	19-08-2002 04:48									#401
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Just read now an email invitation Mong sent me "almost yesterday", sorry for not being to timely...

As I said, I offered my unrequested opinion initially, and it would be unfair to wimp out now

I'll gladly help for what I can, as "hired referee"...
Fine with me to let to KH2 the final ruling, and just support him with my insights as in a "judgement panel".

This would tho mean to take a detailed look at the matter, couldn't just say from what I (partly) read in this thread, you'll excuse me if I didn't follow the finer details after my post.

It would seem to fit nicely, as I took the incoming week off work.
Actually, I don't want to bore you with persnal details, these are my only summer holidays, but I'm staying home. On top of that, I'd have a tight schedule of household chores to attend. On top of that, I left a backlog at work and my boss expects me that I make available a procedure for him to parse before the end of the week, so I brought the office laptop home to also complete that job *while I'd be supposed to be off-work...*

All this is to say that I'm always glad to help fellow smacers, and that I'll surely could use all DD's savefiles since the mishap (and all your passwords of course).
But don't expect a reply in two days.
It could be more rather the whole week.
And Mong knows that when I'm pressed by multiple tasks, with all my good intentions my deadlines can nevertheless shift, shift, shift....
____

Anyway, before taking a position, I'll have to warn you all of one thing.

At first sight, the illegal actions are allegedly "unintentional", that is the perpetrators were not aware they were infringing the rules, and I have no element to deny that. This should not be an excusation, I know. But it must for sure influence the amount, and first of all the *nature* of the sanctions that are to be applied.

- sure, at least we should apply "workarounds" to attempt reconstruct some regualrity in the game
- then, if you want, we should consider that even without the intention to cheat, the perpetrators "mistake" has caused much frustration (your words) in an interesting game, and undoubtedly spoiled it a bit. They *might* thus be given a mild additional fine, as reminder to pay more attention to the game mechanics.
- definitely tho, my inclination would be to issue NO "SANCTIONS to the players". In the sense of punishment that you inflict on *cheaters*, as I frankly don't see them as such.

I thought fair to warn you all befoer you formally appoint with any kind of refereeing mandate, albeit deputy.

To the other players, I have indeed accumulated a bit of gaming experience over 3 years of pbem, and had the occasion to debate in LENGTH many ruling issues, and was called sometimes to judge and issue sanctions too.
Mong knows mee rather well, DD does too although we had much less contacts.
With Fromage and KK I had only recent game contacts.
But to the other players that I had not the pleasure to meet so far, I can assure that my familiarity with the oldtimers here would bear NO influence on my (subdidiary) judgement.
LOL, in case you could say the opposite, for the many times I had to argue about rules, with Mong especailly!

	19-08-2002 13:27									#402
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Thank you MariOne for your help. Where can I send you those passwords?

	19-08-2002 21:02									#403
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And where can I sned my .sav files?

	19-08-2002 21:27									#404
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DD, last night, I sent MariOne the last 7 turns that I had sent you. Also, I sent K2 MariOne's addy. MariOne should be good to go as soon as K2 sends him the passwords.

	20-08-2002 23:57									#405
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Thanks, MariOne. We definitely appreciate the help.

Oh - you may know me from a few years back (when you were MoSe). I've been a couple of different aliases, and had taken a hiatus. My last one was Rockgroin. (Obviously when I was... younger.

To everyone else:

I'm very sorry I blew up so messily back there. Without trying to venture excuses, there are a few things that appear to be on the brink of sorting themselves out in Real Life, and I should soon again be the Dave you all know and treasure so dearly.

	22-08-2002 17:31									#406
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up

	23-08-2002 17:44									#407
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I am very sorry, I would have been gald to help, and I honestly thought I would have found the time.
Which has not happened in the 4 days since I got the files and the passwords.... and I frankly can't promise you that I'll do it in the weekend, my r/l schedules are already putting a strain on me, this commitment will surely have to come after.

As I realise I'm holding your game, I'm doing you more harm than good.
Really, one more week could easily pass.
Srry if I took on a task I wasn't up to...

	23-08-2002 18:20									#408
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Okay... Knowhow2? Does your offer still stand?

MariOne - thanks for trying, anyhow.

Dave

	26-08-2002 19:49									#409
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MariOne/KnowHow2:

Whomever can get to this the quickest would be most definitely in my debt. Thanks...

Claw919

	26-08-2002 23:08									#410
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I my simple ruling without looking at pass turns is to replay the turn which the "illegal" pact was made.

Unfortunetly I don't have the time to look into thinks either. But from the reading I did before I would say that this is most fair to all players.

	26-08-2002 23:16									#411
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Baloney!!

	26-08-2002 23:25									#412
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Mongoose, who do you think it is unfair to replay the affected turns?

If we had just done that at first, we'd be back to 2206 by now!

	27-08-2002 00:07									#413
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Geez.

Okay, look. We need a consensus here, and it looks like the only one we're going to get is to have MariOne do the judgement. However long it takes, we'll simply have to wait.

(In other words - if someone decides that a ruling is "Baloney" and simply won't continue, then there's no point in having a ruling).

However, since Mongoose did bring up MariOne as a juge (and, particularly since MariOne has already alluded to the fact that he'll tend to be more lenient on Fromage/KK than Mongoose's suggestion), we'll just simply have to wait.

MariOne - thanks for doing this for us - as soon as you get a chance, it would be very much appreciated if you could have a look at this.

	27-08-2002 13:27									#414
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Damn, moral obligations, they keep shredding my soul, it's something I haven't learned to cope with yet, despite being just 3 months away from 40....

I'll do the best I can, maybe this weekend (?).

Obvioulsy, replaying would be the simplest way to remove the cause.
But it's clear that if a player was launching an undercover attack, that would not work the 2nd time around (just like love...). This would be very unfair, denying a strategical opportunity to an innocent one.

Otoh **** happens, and like you have to live with a referee mistake, just as if a passing bird had deflected your winning touchdown pass, so you could live with the fact that a "game accident" denied you the surprise factor. After all, when replaying, you could surprise the escaped victim by attempting something different, knowing that he'll be now all focused to counter your initial plan... Or maybe this time you could just efficiently develop while he wastes his resources in a no more requested defensive effort...

Anyway, I'll try to devise the best way to make for reparations and reinstatement of legality without replaying and thus denying the military surprise factor, which also without having actually looked in the turns yet, I understand could be a major issue.

You know from the start that I'm not mindset to issue any "sanction" but just to find the fairest workaround.

	06-09-2002 22:30									#415
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Can we just consider the game dead? I assume we all have already, but I just want to confirm it so I can take this "off the books", so to speak. It's been idle for about a month now.

	08-09-2002 14:59									#416
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Yeah, I vote for scrapping it too. We'll never be able to come up with a solution that will be satisfactory to all players.

	09-09-2002 13:10									#417
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I thought we had a solution ready allready. DD just didn't play his turn.

	09-09-2002 18:15									#418
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i think it best we just call this game off. oh, and someone should tell who's trying to arbitrate this, to stop as well.

	09-09-2002 18:35									#419
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Play WHAT turn? That's not clear. Game called on account of one word:

Baloney! --Mongoose

	09-09-2002 21:35									#420
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Aw, geez.

Let's not end with hard feelings. Regardless, there wasn't any realistic possibility that a good solution could be found. SMH and Mong's attack was doomed to suffer regardless of the decision (save for INCREDIBLY stiff sanctions against Fromage, which wouldn't go over big on his/KK's side of the map). No matter what, then, you'd have people who had feelings of "*Sigh*... this is pointless, now..." 40 turns from now when things didn't go their way - it probably wasn't prudent to try and salvage it anyway.

Thanks, guys - even though it didn't end well, I was enjoying the game while it was in motion. Thanks (and apologies) to the replacement players as well, who stepped in and tried to save a wounded animal that had already had all 4 limbs cut off and 1 eye put out.

Dave