01-05-2002 19:29									#1
	UN mission to Jenin Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It seems Israel is boycotting the UN mission to Jenin. Typical.
And of course the UN is just giving in. Typical.

Anyway, a team of dutch investigators in Jenin confirmed that there wasn't a bloodbath. Though the team did report numerous human rights violations (not surprising really). Sadly, the UN won't find it out for itself thanks to it's own attitude, and that of Israel.

	01-05-2002 19:34									#2
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I'm impressed marcus, this if the first time I'm unsure just who you're trolling. Keep it up.

RAH

	01-05-2002 19:36									#3
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When in doubt, assume it's the US.

	01-05-2002 19:44									#4
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Apparently Israel has to hide something. Apparently not a clear massacre. But they succeeded. We'll not know what.

	01-05-2002 19:47									#5
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Think about it :

The UN is determined to send this comitee to Jenin and dissagrees to Israel's terms.
Israel agrees to an American proposal to end the siege on Arafat.
The UN backs off, and Anan is thinking to disband the mission.

	01-05-2002 19:51									#6
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Eli, the UN is considering scrapping the mission because your government won't let them into the country, not because there's a backroom deal in the works.

	01-05-2002 20:03									#7
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quote: Israel agrees to an American proposal to end the siege on Arafat.

Proposal? It was a demand. And Sharon didn't want it at all, but couldn't say no yet again.

quote: Eli, the UN is considering scrapping the mission because your government won't let them into the country, not because there's a backroom deal in the works.

Exactly.

quote: I'm impressed marcus, this if the first time I'm unsure just who you're trolling. Keep it up.

In this case: Israel, UN, USA, Europe.

Israel for blocking the UN mission
The UN for giving in.
The US for supporting Israel (and are likely to quit support to the UN mission).
Europe for just not caring at all.

	01-05-2002 20:10									#8
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Attached is a recent Washington Post editorial explaining some of the Israeli objections. Some of the highlights include:

quote: For more than 50 years, Magen David Adom (MDA), the Red Cross's Israeli counterpart, has been excluded from the ICRC and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. Opposition from Arab states and their allies within the international Red Cross groups has closed the doors to the MDA and its emblem, the red shield of David. It matters not that Israel's MDA meets, and for a half-century has met, all the requirements of international membership.

quote: . In 1999, when he was ICRC president, Mr. Sommaruga was upset by a speech made at a federation meeting by then-American Red Cross President Bernadine Healy, in which she criticized Israel's inexcusable exclusion. Afterward, he said to her: "If we're going to have the shield of David, why would we not have to accept the swastika?"

I don't see why these kinds of issues could not have been worked out in a mutually agreeable and timely manner.

	01-05-2002 21:54									#9
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They can find an excuse wherever they look. Really, if not this, then something else.

It's not surprising that the US is blasting Iraq for not letting UN inspectors in, but didn't say a thing about this.

	02-05-2002 11:01									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They can find an excuse wherever they look. Really, if not this, then something else.

Excuses are like @ssholes - everyone's got one...

Anyone who wants an excuse will always find one - that doesn't mean everyone else has to accept it...

quote: It's not surprising that the US is blasting Iraq for not letting UN inspectors in, but didn't say a thing about this.

I guess some countries are "more equal than others"...

	02-05-2002 11:09									#11
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most definitely

Jon Miller

	02-05-2002 11:12									#12
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Israel will pay for its arrogance. Invoke sanctions against Israel just like against Iraq. The UN was prevented from inspecting suspicious factories there. What´s the difference between Iraq and Israel in this aspect?

	02-05-2002 11:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Israel will pay for its arrogance.

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that Israel realized it was being set up and refused to play along.
Their demands - Composition consisting of Neutrals/Allies who didn't have an axe to grind against them, and military personel who knew how to analyse a battlefield, weren't unreasonable ...

Bit of a difference in situations between Israel and Iraq as well. The Iraqis agreed to the inspections at the end of the Gulf War in the ceasefire agreement. Israel was under no such obligation.

	02-05-2002 11:32									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Israel will pay for its arrogance. Invoke sanctions against Israel just like against Iraq. The UN was prevented from inspecting suspicious factories there. What´s the difference between Iraq and Israel in this aspect?

Isn't that pretty obvious?

The US likes Israel, but they don't like Iraq.

That's all the difference they need.

Even when Israel attacked a US ship (the USS Liberty), killing 34 Americans and wounding 174, the US government pretty much just put a lid on the whole thing and refused to "embarrass an ally"...

Like I said, some countries are "more equal than others".

	02-05-2002 11:43									#15
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The difference is that the terms imposed on Iraq were imposed on a defeated power. Israel has not been defeated.

	02-05-2002 12:03									#16
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Israel is not in the wrong:
Human Rights groups have been in Jenin for quite a while-they have said there is no evidence of a massacre. Israelis are not Nazis-they don't just kill women and children and etc like that. I am Israeli (semi), I have lived in Israel, and I can tell you that if a massacre was ordered very few soldiers or officers would obey that command.
Why didn't they allow the UN into Israel? Because the Israelis realised this would be a witch hunt, not a investigation. At first, the UN said they'll investigate Jenin-Israel has no problem with that. Then, the UN said they'll start off with Jenin and then go to other places in PA, then obviously in the end they'll condemn Israel for "extreme use of force" or somesuch, as they always have. Then, the UN put together a team of politicans and etc to examine the camp-Israel thought there were would be former military or military generals and etc as most of the comittee-these people can tell whether Israel massacred people or not, and whether they did stuff on purpose or not.

	02-05-2002 12:47									#17
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I wish they would bomb Israel to the stone age! Of course tht´s not gonna happen. The jewish lobby in Washington is all to powerful

	02-05-2002 12:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DeeEllway I wish they would bomb Israel to the stone age!

Bad idea.
Even if it could be done, it wouldn't solve anything, just ensure that even more people would be hurt.

	02-05-2002 13:02									#19
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Not people, jews. There´s a slight difference

	02-05-2002 13:08									#20
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quote: Not people, jews. There´s a slight difference

And a one, and a two and a three:

Goodbye, thank you for playing.

You're a very crappy DL.

	02-05-2002 13:13									#21
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This DeeEllway must be a joke...

	02-05-2002 13:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DeeEllway Not people, jews. There´s a slight difference

you're gone.

I'm sick of this ****, so since this is likely a DL, it's permanent. If it turns out to be WFHermans, that one is gone for good.

If I find it's anyone else, the DL creator will get a two month ban.

	02-05-2002 14:01									#23
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thanks MtG.


about the Issue:

I agree that Israel should have agreed to the inspectors. But apparently our government is paranoid about the UN. kind of a thing to be expect after the overwhelming success of UNIFIL.

	02-05-2002 14:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Human Rights groups have been in Jenin for quite a while-they have said there is no evidence of a massacre.

Sorry, Zevico, but here is where I have to disagree with you.
AFAIK, human rights groups are not meant to take evidence of war crimes. However, the same groups that said there was no evidence of massacre said there was evidence of war crimes, such as the denial of medical assistance.

quote: Originally posted by Zevico Israelis are not Nazis-they don't just kill women and children and etc like that. I am Israeli (semi), I have lived in Israel, and I can tell you that if a massacre was ordered very few soldiers or officers would obey that command.

I do agree with you that Israellis are not Nazis because I do not support generalizations or exagerations: therefore, not all Israellis despise the Palestinians, and I actuallly don't believe that those who do despise them do it out of a Nazi ideology (although some Israelli extremists do advocate zionist superiority).
I also don't know how a massacre is ordered. I believe, however, that a massacre may be allowed to occur if just a few officers and soldiers (or phalanx) decide to neglect the respect they must have on civilian lives and no one prevents it. And, again, I'm not saying that there was a massacre in Jenin: I was waiting for the resuls of the UN mission, that the Israelli goverment boicoted.

quote: Originally posted by Zevico Why didn't they allow the UN into Israel? Because the Israelis realised this would be a witch hunt, not a investigation. At first, the UN said they'll investigate Jenin-Israel has no problem with that. Then, the UN said they'll start off with Jenin and then go to other places in PA, then obviously in the end they'll condemn Israel for "extreme use of force" or somesuch, as they always have. Then, the UN put together a team of politicans and etc to examine the camp-Israel thought there were would be former military or military generals and etc as most of the comittee-these people can tell whether Israel massacred people or not, and whether they did stuff on purpose or not.

The reasoning you present is just a demonstration of a paranoid atitude towards the UN, with no reason whasoever to support it.
It is also based on irrelevant facts: it's true that the first team didn't included military advisors, but the final composition had them.

Summing up, the Israelli Government is having a sad display of disrespect toward the opinion all the other nations. There is not one nation in the world fully supporting it's actions, not even the US. Every request done by the UN or EU as been disregarded, and most of the requests by the US have also been disregarded.

In what way does this serve the Israelli people's legitimate right to Security, I honnestly don't know. Only time will show if the hawkish strategy of the Israelli Government had any shred of sucess. If not, Sharon will be out of office, but it will be some (many) anonymous Israellis who will really suffer.

Meanwhile, I hope the International Community further isolates Israel, until the people realize that, at least, justice must be allowed to take due course (through independent investigations).
Otherwize, they are falling as low as the ones that call their killers heroes. The result is the same: the criminals do not get the blame and are not being condemned for their crimes.

	02-05-2002 15:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Sorry, Zevico, but here is where I have to disagree with you. AFAIK, human rights groups are not meant to take evidence of war crimes. However, the same groups that said there was no evidence of massacre said there was evidence of war crimes, such as the denial of medical assistance.

And on this I would have to disagree with you. I would hazard a guess that the entire issue of denying medical assistance is pretty much based solely on politicians generating sound bytes over the instances (two in number I believe) where Palestinian ambulances (sometimes known as explosive ordnance transports ) were delayed. These lost their right to neutrality the first time they were used as such.

quote: The reasoning you present is just a demonstration of a paranoid atitude towards the UN, with no reason whasoever to support it. It is also based on irrelevant facts: it's true that the first team didn't included military advisors, but the final composition had them.

Likewise for this point. Israel initially had no objection to an investigation until the UN demonstrated (at best) its willingness to be swayed by the "anti-Israel lobby".
When they initially made no attempt whatsoever to organize a reasonably neutral and competent (ie: military rather than political) investigative team they lost whatever confidence the Israelis may have had in an unbiased investigation. It was the UN itself that was solely responsible for screwing this up.
Anan basically admitted as much in his later speeches.

	02-05-2002 15:38									#26
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ravagon:
On your first comment: In this matter a chose not to discuss aleged facts. An international inquiry was set to be made. If it was made, we could discuss whether it was only one event, and if there was no possibilty of screening for explosives before allowing the ambulance, or even the need of transporting bombs to an already destroyed war zone.

On you second comment:
As far as I know, Anan didn't admit any of your claims. The news I received was that the Israelly Goverment made all that was possible to prevent the inquiry. Having been in the territory prior to the enquiry team's arrival, the Israelly Government would have had the oportunity to refute any accusation, were anyone to result from the team's report. Their choice was clear, no matter what reasoning they now present and you chose to agree. I, for one, am not that eager to believe in whatever a politician says, particularly when trying to avoid that more information about an event comes to light.

	02-05-2002 17:16									#27
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quote: Human Rights groups have been in Jenin for quite a while-they have said there is no evidence of a massacre.

True. Like the dutch team reported, no massacre/bloodbath. Though there were numerous human rights violations

	02-05-2002 18:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DeeEllway I wish they would bomb Israel to the stone age! Of course tht´s not gonna happen. The jewish lobby in Washington is all to powerful

What is really interesting about this comment is that the person came out and said it. Other comements here come close but never quite go as far. Things like Israel is going to pay and they should slam Israel come close, but the others aren't quite as brave.

Of course there are still no UN inspection teams inspecting the PA for evidence of Terrorist support. But I guess Arafat's word is good enough right.

	02-05-2002 18:07									#29
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oh , dear, human rights violations. If the west condemned everytime there are human rights violations, the arab countries would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

	02-05-2002 18:10									#30
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Sprayber : there is no point in arguing with him, he's a stupid nazi.

but don't listen to me . After all, I am not quite human , remember?