02-05-2002 06:52									#1
	Can I still complain about AI border violations? Support Apolyton

1) The frequency with which AI units enter my borders is still appallingly high. And they still ignore me when I ask them to leave.

2) The AI still gets a free pass through other AI territory to come and attack me with huge armies, even if they don't have a RoP agreement with the other civ. That's just patently not fair and gives the AI what is essentially a major cheat on all difficulty levels.

	02-05-2002 07:12									#2
	Re: Can I still complain about AI border violations? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

No






I havn't seen as much violations in 1.21f then the others.

	02-05-2002 07:30									#3
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LOL, thanks, wiseguy.

I haven't noticed a difference. Many wars have started with me asking another civ to kinldy leave and they just turn around and declare war instead. How rude.

	02-05-2002 07:57									#4
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You can, but it won't do any good.

I was on polite terms with Germany one game, and I told them to leave or go to WAR! Well, they chose war.

	02-05-2002 08:03									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski You can, but it won't do any good. I was on polite terms with Germany one game, and I told them to leave or go to WAR! Well, they chose war.

Well, actually, that does kinda sound like the Germans...

	02-05-2002 08:16									#6
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Yes, Yes it does. I saved before I did it, just to see what would happen. Reloaded and went, I think, 3 turns, and they cancelled trade with me and declared war for no reason. Other than only 1 spearman in the city of course.

I took it back. He took another city, i took it back. And later he asked for peace.

He was then POLITE AGAIN !!!!

	02-05-2002 08:23									#7
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Oh Ja, ve vant no hard feelingks. Ve vere just jokingk, mein herr!!

	02-05-2002 08:39									#8
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He was also on another island, and I didn't have the military to invade at the time. No horses, and later no Saltpeter, while he had both.

	02-05-2002 08:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Oh Ja, ve vant no hard feelingks. Ve vere just jokingk, mein herr!!

At least they are capable of sueing for peace. The Zulu just can't live without fighting a war... any war.

"They are killing our women, children and cattle. Think about THE CATTLE!!!"

And it is disturbing that Shaka's definition of a polite greeting goes:

"I, Shaka of the Zulu shall refrain from scouring the world of your filth."

	02-05-2002 08:58									#10
	Re: Can I still complain about AI border violations? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The AI still gets a free pass through other AI territory to come and attack me with huge armies, even if they don't have a RoP agreement with the other civ. That's just patently not fair and gives the AI what is essentially a major cheat on all difficulty levels.

Do you mean that you have never seen a huge AI army which is obviously heading across your country to attack another AI player and just decided to let them pass?

I won't give them an ROP agreement, but I'll let them toss their best units into the shredder of someone else's best units and pick off the loser. If he still has troops in your territory, you can usually goad him into declaring against you with the "get out or else" message.

Of course, you should have your troops poised to attack before attempting this.

	02-05-2002 09:10									#11
	Re: Re: Can I still complain about AI border violations? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by dawidge Do you mean that you have never seen a huge AI army which is obviously heading across your country to attack another AI player and just decided to let them pass?

That still makes a double standard, because never ever will an AI civ let me do the same thing. Even if it's one unit, they kick me out.

But to answer, no, I guess I take a more traditional approach to the sanctity of my borders. First, I don't like seeing an AI army in my borders because they could just decide to declare war arbitrarily anyway. Second, often times they are going to attack a nation I'm on friendly terms with, and since I don't want the first AI to benefit from conquering the second AI, I'd rather keep them separated. If he wants to invade so bad, he should by a friggin' boat or bribe me for a RoP.

As for the AI, I don't mind if he has a RoP, but without it, the AI should be a lot more aggressive at kicking out other AI civs.

	02-05-2002 09:11									#12
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Sounds to me like other nations don't respect you. Are you building culture?

	02-05-2002 09:18									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th Sounds to me like other nations don't respect you. Are you building culture?

Number 1 in culture, other nations in awe of me. I don't think this has anything to do with a planned feature, I think it is a game design flaw that lets the AI civs cheat in regards to national borders.

	02-05-2002 09:33									#14
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why is it when the human player is asked to leave he is automatically sent back to his nearest city but when the ai is asked to leave the unit must find its way out. wouldnt this whole problem be solved if the same rule that applies to human players be applied to the ai. if the ai units were sent back automatically there would be no trespassing unless the ai wanted war of course.

	02-05-2002 09:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by blacksheep why is it when the human player is asked to leave he is automatically sent back to his nearest city but when the ai is asked to leave the unit must find its way out. wouldnt this whole problem be solved if the same rule that applies to human players be applied to the ai. if the ai units were sent back automatically there would be no trespassing unless the ai wanted war of course.

Actually, that does happen. There are 2 kinds of asking someone to get out..."Please Go." or "Get out or declare war."

If an AI unit has only been in your territory a brief period and you haven't confronted them yet, you can only do the first one. If however they have ignored your first request and are still there after a bit, you can do the second one. On doing that one, the AI units will leave automatically.

Likewise, the AI has the same rules for asking you to leave. At first, it's up to you to pull out, but if you don't, you will get the boot automatically.

	02-05-2002 10:10									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Actually, that does happen. There are 2 kinds of asking someone to get out..."Please Go." or "Get out or declare war." If an AI unit has only been in your territory a brief period and you haven't confronted them yet, you can only do the first one. If however they have ignored your first request and are still there after a bit, you can do the second one. On doing that one, the AI units will leave automatically. Likewise, the AI has the same rules for asking you to leave. At first, it's up to you to pull out, but if you don't, you will get the boot automatically.

I think it also has to do with the number of units in their territory. If I have one or two on their land, they will let me stay for a turn. If I have, oh, say 50 modern armors sitting there, they will get kicked out without a warning.

	02-05-2002 12:01									#17
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I think it has something to do with how near they are to a city. Supposedly, once a unit is next to a city, the owner of that city (assuming they don't have a ROP) is allowed to kick them out.

	02-05-2002 12:37									#18
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I think the problem is that the AI doesn't respect your civilization.
And I think it doesn't respect you due to your military size.
Build heaps more units, and then observe as the enemy now avoids your territory like the plague.

	02-05-2002 12:57									#19
	Re: Can I still complain about AI border violations? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov 1) The frequency with which AI units enter my borders is still appallingly high. And they still ignore me when I ask them to leave. 2) The AI still gets a free pass through other AI territory to come and attack me with huge armies, even if they don't have a RoP agreement with the other civ. That's just patently not fair and gives the AI what is essentially a major cheat on all difficulty levels.

1. they feel that you are something to poop on. as soon as you build a sizeable army ,they are very mindful. whenever my army is pathetic, and i am lucky enough to get out of the harm's way, they actually battle it out on my territory and i have to watch that

2) it happens many times that i negotiate free pass witout ROP. this is for 2 reasons - to attack their neighbour, if need arises, and to improve relations. so no cheating there

	02-05-2002 16:50									#20
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The AI violates your borders because it has analyzed your psychological profile and senses you are a coward. I would recommend that you seek out some self-esteem classes and carry a Glock 9mm when you play. I do ...and the AI hardly ever comes across my territory line.

	02-05-2002 17:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by danimal The AI violates your borders because it has analyzed your psychological profile and senses you are a coward. I would recommend that you seek out some self-esteem classes and carry a Glock 9mm when you play. I do ...and the AI hardly ever comes across my territory line.

If that's the kind of profile on me, they're dead wrong. I have no compunctions against "Renegociating Peace" with the moron whose forces stepped into my land. Those forces in my land get a 30 second headstart to run back home before my forces pursue and annihilate them.

	02-05-2002 18:36									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It is very annoying. The AI just continually waltzes into my territory.

In a way it's good. In a way it's bad.

It's good, because if they were to violate your border only when they were going to attack you, then they would tip their hand to you each time they did.

It's bad because if I tell them to leave, I get a diplomatic negative as being "uncooperative" I guess. That's lame.

I've never had the AI offer a Right of Passage to me without an alliance or MPP.

	02-05-2002 18:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I think the problem is that the AI doesn't respect your civilization. And I think it doesn't respect you due to your military size. Build heaps more units, and then observe as the enemy now avoids your territory like the plague.

I don't see how that can be, as I have the largest culture by far and a far larger military than the AI civ making the incursions.

	02-05-2002 19:32									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by dunk999 I've never had the AI offer a Right of Passage to me without an alliance or MPP.

While that is what the AI offers, you can renegotiate it to just be ROP. Of course, it will appear that you want the ROP, and they won't make concessions (and will demand concessions) even though they need the ROP for their campaign.

ObKvetch. There really needs to be a one-way ROP. I could offer an ROP across my terrirory to the AI and get concessions from him. But if I see that he wants to cross my territory to attack another AI that I am not friends with (but not yet willing to attack) and offer him an ROP, he wants concessions from me even though the agreement is really in his favor to begin with.

If Firaxis isn't going to change the ROP to include the possibility of one-way agreements, could they at least adjust the AI's weighting of ROPs to be able to see when the ROP would be in its favor?

	02-05-2002 19:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I don't see how that can be, as I have the largest culture by far and a far larger military than the AI civ making the incursions.

you have to strike fear into the 'heart' of the ai code
hehe
no but really, i found that they stop incursions after i flex my military muscle(s)

	02-05-2002 19:51									#27
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it all depends on the size of your army. If you have a very big army, the AI is more likely to respect your borders. Doesn't always work though.

	03-05-2002 01:12									#28
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Seal off your borders. Place a defender on every border square and watch them walk around you territory. Of course, easier said than done in the ancient (and possibly medieval) ages, but you didn't say when this was happening.

I find that in most games my cities have nothing left to build improvement wise by the early industrial era, especially once you've dropped in your factories (do you beeline to them?), so start cranking out your pikemen/riflemen/infantry, and move them to contruct your defensive line. Just be ready for the AI to make like the Germans and do an end run through "Beligium".

Edit: This has the drawback of being defensive instead of offensive, but at least you'll always have a "large army" as far as the AI is considered.

	03-05-2002 01:39									#29
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quote: Originally posted by dawidge While that is what the AI offers, you can renegotiate it to just be ROP. Of course, it will appear that you want the ROP, and they won't make concessions (and will demand concessions) even though they need the ROP for their campaign.

True, but if you look at your foreign advisor screen, AI civs have ROPs between them with Alliances or MPPs.

Another way to get ROPs without anything else is to violate someone's territory and when they complain, say, "We could agree to a ROP agreement."

	03-05-2002 02:04									#30
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Actually... from what I tell, part of the valuing the AI does for ROPs is considering whether either of you is already invading; they seem to be more willing to get a ROP if they already have an army in the midst of my territory (assuming it's not an army pointed at me!), and less willing to seek one out if I've got troops going through their territory (usually coast space).