03-05-2002 05:27									#1
	Getting the ball rolling! Got spare money?

Okay...whew...so....first day in the new forum, and where to begin? What can I say about a game that doesn't quite exist but has generated a LOT of excitement on our team!

First, it is my hope that by seeing it come together here, by talking about the various elements that will be going into the game proper, by kicking ideas around and demonstrating that we're willing to really LISTEN to our fans and supporters, some measure of our own excitement will rub off, and some wholly new excitement will be generated right here....if so, then that excitement will feed our own excitement for the project, and grow....it'll be what sustains us until we're on our feet good. That's vitally important.

Second, it's all about creativity. The free flow of ideas....the discussion of new concepts (or not-so-new concepts we may be able to borrow from other games and modify).

One of the key advantages to our having a slot on 'polyton's forums is that there are an awful lot of keen eyes and sharp minds here. I'm hoping that I can entice at least some of those keen eyes and sharp minds into thinking and talking about this game.

To that end, I'd like for everyone who comes here to read, to leave all preconceptions and limitations at the door.

In here, there are no limits.

We're not gonna worry about what is practical, or feasable....we're not even gonna worry too much about what will and won't work in terms of this game (on the thinking that if we succeed in our early efforts, there WILL be other games!)

All we're gonna focus on are the ideas. Concepts. Things that would be supremely cool in a computer game.

Nothing else matters.

So...unlearn everything you ever learned about how the world works. Unlearn the habits of holding back cos companies don't really listen to their fans and supporters anyway.

That doesn't apply or hold true here. This place exists because we're ready and willing to listen.

So, even if you have an idea you think is absurd...no way in hell it could possibly be made to work.....bring it up.

Maybe it can't work....maybe it can't work in Candle'Bre.

Doesn't mean it's a bad idea, and it doesn't mean that the initial idea won't spawn others that WILL work.

That's what I'm after with this place.

Ideas. Feedback. Creativity.

Tell me what would make the ultimate computer game in your mind. We're currently making a 4x turn based game, but don't necessarily let that limit your thinking.

I'm game for....just about anything.

-=Vel=-

	03-05-2002 18:05									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hi, Vel! So you're a mod now... hey, you should add a "Velocigames" title too.

Good to see that your game will be discussed here on 'Poly, I surely hope to contribute with some of my own ideas. So far, the little I know about Candle'Bre really got me interested.

Good luck and let's debate your labour of love...

	03-05-2002 18:17									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks man! I'm glad it's got you interested! And yes, I'm really looking forward to hearing ideas from the folk of 'poly!

-=Vel=-
(still not too sure about this Mod stuff, but...I'm gettin' there.... )

	06-05-2002 20:14									#4
	Support Apolyton

Hello gang,

I've watched with some interest your forums for the last few days. I'm always interested in the alt-civs family, and I wish you the best of luck in your undertaking. Let me say a couple of things as someone who has some bit of experience designing games. I hope you don't think it condiscending!

Your enthusiasm is impressive, and I hope it translates into a working game I've seen a couple of mistakes being made already, but everyone who takes on something like this makes them, no help for it, you just have to work through it. It's all part of the experience, heh. As long as you're able to keep your programmers/artists interested and working, you'll do okay.

You have no idea of the magnitude of the project you have taken on. You think you do, but its actually much bigger than you realize At some point, you'll look at the project and feel overwhelmed. But don't let it get to you. Takes things one step at a time, eventually you will see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Good luck, and happy coding!

Ron

	06-05-2002 20:35									#5
	Remove this text

Hey Ron! And thank you for stopping in here! Shoot me an e-mail at your next convenience! I'd love to hear stories from your own experience, and hear what sorts of mistakes you've seen creeping into the mix!

-=Vel=-

	11-05-2002 09:10									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm, I wouldn't really feel comfortable saying "this is a mistake" or "that is a mistake". What turned out to be a bad mistake in my project won't necessarily turn out that way in yours, and what turned out to be a good move in my project may be a huge mistake in coding yours, so it's really not my place

I will say one thing though, which maybe you should keep in mind, hopefully it'll help. You will find that designing a game is a much faster and easier process than coding a game. What's going to happen is that your designers (you included) will gleefully keeping modifying and tweaking and changing rules, if for no other reason than you're bored with the percieved slow progress of the coders, and feel like you should be doing something, in order to keep up a sense of progress. I've already seen this happening in your "changes to core rules" thread.

What that does is present a moving target to your poor coders, who are desperately trying to keep up with the ever changing face of the game. This can get to be quite frustrating for the coders, and is a good way to lose their talents. Coding is very hard work, and if they are forced to rip out large sections of painfully written and tested code because the rules suddenly changed on them in mid-build, they will eventually tire of the "non-progress" and move on.

That's not to say you should smother the efforts of your designers, but you do need to strike a balance between changing rulesets and the efforts of those coding the game. This is a lesson we learned the hard way

Hope it's going well so far.

Ron

	11-05-2002 09:18									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

::nodding:: VERY well said, Sir Ron! And yes...one of the key phrases in my arsenal is "don't worry...it's just an idea for the commercial release!"

LOL...but, your point is VERY well taken! I must resist the urge to tweak and change (more to the point, I must resist the urge to make an overwhelming number of additions in the "change thread."

Our first, overriding goal is to get a playable alpha out, and for that build, the rules are set in stone. Most everything we're talking about here is for a significantly later release, but of course, as our testing continues, we have been uncovering some stuff that just doesn't work as well in game as it did on paper.

Nonetheless, if anybody thinks I'm getting too carried away with the changes, kindly bludgeon me with a heavy object....

-=Vel=-

	13-05-2002 20:43									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Just to touch once more on what Ron said...

Make sure those rules are set in stone!

I am a professional software engineer, currently working on a government contract. Our contract is very explicit. We make two deliveris of our software each year. All changes to the existing baseline must be fixed "in stone" by certain dates, to allow us to design and code the changes. Yet we constantly get "late requirement" changes. Our "target" is in constant motion. The day before my latest delivery, my customer called with a 'Oops,I forgot" requirement, that had to be included. A week AFTER I had delivered, we got a briefing from the databse engineers on how the changes they are making would affect our code!

Constantly moving targets are very disheartening. I have seriously considered quitting this (very) well-paying job just for that reason. Volunteer coders have even fewer reasons to stay than I do.

I've loved what I've seen so far here and on your site. I'm just asking / reminding you to be "nice" to your programmers. Or someone WILL find a bludgeon...

	13-05-2002 21:07									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You got it, Padma! I'm all for keeping my head the same shape and consistency it's in now, so I will definately remember those words!

I think the coolest thing about this project so far is that each success has added to the pool of enthusiasm we're all drinking out of. We were going along at a slow but steady clip, then we had a burst of creativity which led to a flurry of forum activity....then we got two NEW forums up and running, along with the CB website, and suddenly, we were on the map!

Since then, it's exploded. I think that by making incremental chances and setting those changes in stone for each build out, we can preserve the sanity of the code group, AND preserve the shape of my noggin, while still bein' able to kick coolio ideas around. At least that's my plan....

-=Vel=-

	13-05-2002 21:24									#10
	Got spare money?

Yep, basically, while the code team is working away writing version x.y, we might be tossing idesa around for version, ooh, x.(y+5). That way, we get to keep the creativity while letting the coders have something solid to aim at.

The only time we are altering rules for version x.y is if the coders come back and say "Erm, actually, that's impossible. Or at least heinously difficult, time-consuming and will make the game run at about 1 turn per millenium. Any chance of tweaking it slightly?"

	13-05-2002 22:39									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chowlett The only time we are altering rules for version x.y is if the coders come back and say "Erm, actually, that's impossible. Or at least heinously difficult, time-consuming and will make the game run at about 1 turn per millenium. Any chance of tweaking it slightly?"

How many such instances have you had so far?

	13-05-2002 23:03									#12
	Tired of ads?

So far....none....but I suspect it's coming....sometimes, I scare myself....

-=Vel=-