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Jon Miller
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yes they do
they cause the death of people by stealing their work from them, there production, screwing up the environment, and so on
Jon Miller
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
they cause the death of people by stealing their work from them, there production, screwing up the environment, and so on |
No one's work is stolen, they freely contract to work a certain amount of time for a certain amount of money. As to pollution, it's interesting to note the Soviet Union was a far bigger polluter than the US.
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Jon Miller
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their work is stolen because they have no other choice
Jon Miller
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:13
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monkspider, I will use non-violent methods where and when I can, and violent methods if forced to defend the revolution.
David, that the military is conservative is why it will attempt to overthow us. Unless we win over significant sections of the miltary to the side of the American people, we will fall. Personally, I think one of the first orders of a socialist government in the US would be to have the soldiers arrest the officers.
Murder is wrong because we agree that it is wrong. If we thought it was okay, it would be okay (and much more miserable world). At various times and places, we have agreed that murder is not wrong, at least in regards of certain catagories of people.
When I said peasantry, I meant peasantry. Although the serfs were bound to the land, villages often had commons, which were for the use of all the peasants. Via enclosure acts, the various bourgeois parlianments divided up and seized the common property for the bourgeoisie. They stole it, just like everything else.
The Communists didn't get elected because while they had more members of their party, they had less overall support. Consider that the the Democratic and Republican parties today only have about 100,000 members each. All the rest of the people who vote are supporters, not members, not Democrats, not Republicans. The Communist Party had a million members pass through it in the 1930s. Also the whack policies of the CPUSA turned a lot of people off, seeing as it followed every policy turn of the USSR.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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Sure they do. Start their own business (many people do), lobby en masse for change, exert consumer pressure for change, move to a farm and make their own way, or not work at all.
Thing is, though, most Americans support the wage labor system.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
monkspider, I will use non-violent methods where and when I can, and violent methods if forced to defend the revolution.
David, that the military is conservative is why it will attempt to overthow us. Unless we win over significant sections of the miltary to the side of the American people, we will fall. Personally, I think one of the first orders of a socialist government in the US would be to have the soldiers arrest the officers.
Murder is wrong because we agree that it is wrong. If we thought it was okay, it would be okay (and much more miserable world). At various times and places, we have agreed that murder is not wrong, at least in regards of certain catagories of people.
When I said peasantry, I meant peasantry. Although the serfs were bound to the land, villages often had commons, which were for the use of all the peasants. Via enclosure acts, the various bourgeois parlianments divided up and seized the common property for the bourgeoisie. They stole it, just like everything else.
The Communists didn't get elected because while they had more members of their party, they had less overall support. Consider that the the Democratic and Republican parties today only have about 100,000 members each. All the rest of the people who vote are supporters, not members, not Democrats, not Republicans. The Communist Party had a million members pass through it in the 1930s. Also the whack policies of the CPUSA turned a lot of people off, seeing as it followed every policy turn of the USSR. |
why should the soldier arrest the officers
the only difference is the officers have a college degree
no other difference
murder is wrong because of right to life
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
David, that the military is conservative is why it will attempt to overthow us. Unless we win over significant sections of the miltary to the side of the American people, we will fall. Personally, I think one of the first orders of a socialist government in the US would be to have the soldiers arrest the officers. |
Ah, I thought you meant the military would support you :embarrassed:
But why would the soldiers turn against their own officers? No, they would follow orders to fight the coup and return the proper elected government to power.
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Murder is wrong because we agree that it is wrong. If we thought it was okay, it would be okay (and much more miserable world). At various times and places, we have agreed that murder is not wrong, at least in regards of certain catagories of people. |
I categorically reject any argument that murder can ever be OK based upon society - I fail to see how society's whims can determine if something is right or wrong.
Look at it like this - in an era before organized society, if someone tries to kill you, would you say he committed a wrong? I certainly would, and I suspect everyone else here would too. Society didn't debate and reach a consensus, but murder is still wrong because it is, by definition, the unjustified taking of a human life.
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When I said peasantry, I meant peasantry. Although the serfs were bound to the land, villages often had commons, which were for the use of all the peasants. Via enclosure acts, the various bourgeois parlianments divided up and seized the common property for the bourgeoisie. They stole it, just like everything else. |
How is this an indictment of capitalism, seeing as how true capitalism has never existed? This was not even done in the name of capitalism.
quote:
The Communists didn't get elected because while they had more members of their party, they had less overall support. Consider that the the Democratic and Republican parties today only have about 100,000 members each. All the rest of the people who vote are supporters, not members, not Democrats, not Republicans. The Communist Party had a million members pass through it in the 1930s. Also the whack policies of the CPUSA turned a lot of people off, seeing as it followed every policy turn of the USSR. |
So my original point stands - communists will not be elected because they have almost no support.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
The USSR was also in a race for its survival. When your day to day existence is threatened, long term interests got put on the back burner. Perhaps if the West was always threatening to invade, always comitting acts of terrorism, the USSR wouldn't have needed to ignore environmental and worker safety. |
That's ridiculous - the West never had any intention of invading the USSR, outside of the half-assed attempt to support the White Russians in the civil war.
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For now, and only because they see no viable alternative. We aim to show them one. |
So you think the average American, who makes $40,000 a year, has a decent house or apartment, wife, 2.5 kids, two cars, three TVs, and a computer is going to risk that to support an ideology in which he could stand to lose all that property? Unrealistic.
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Jon Miller
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the people will vote as such
Jon Miller
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
the people will vote as such |
History and common sense show otherwise.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
But why would the soldiers turn against their own officers? No, they would follow orders to fight the coup and return the proper elected government to power. |
The scenario assumes we are the elected government. The coup would be to remove the socialists from government.
quote:
I categorically reject any argument that murder can ever be OK based upon society - I fail to see how society's whims can determine if something is right or wrong.
Look at it like this - in an era before organized society, if someone tries to kill you, would you say he committed a wrong? |
You can catagorically reject whaever you like. Just realize that your ideas are merely ideas. Ideas do not exist outside of humans thinking them. If a human is not thinking them, they do not exist. Therefore, rights do not exist until we think of them.
Before organized society existed, if someone tried to kill me, I would not necessarily say that person was wrong. Right and wrong are concepts. I might think of him simply as an enemy, and that's what enemies do, they try to kill you.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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The scenario assumes we are the elected government. The coup would be to remove the socialists from government. |
And my point is that assuming a socialist/communist victory in the US is ridiculous.
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You can catagorically reject whaever you like. Just realize that your ideas are merely ideas. |
I'm afraid we have little common ground if you can't agree that murder is wrong regardless of society.
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Ideas do not exist outside of humans thinking them. If a human is not thinking them, they do not exist. |
Sorta like gravity or electricity, huh?
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Before organized society existed, if someone tried to kill me, I would not necessarily say that person was wrong. Right and wrong are concepts. I might think of him simply as an enemy, and that's what enemies do, they try to kill you. |
Sure, and you would see a problem with that. No matter what words you used, the concept would be "What he's doing is wrong."
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Jon, don't get me wrong. I think murder is wrong. I don't want to be murdered. I don't want anyone I know to be murdered. I don't even want to hear about people being murdered. But there's no law of nature that says it's wrong. It's just not in our individual or collective interests to permit it. On the other hand, most Americans apparently see nothing wrong with murdering foreign nationals if our government is the one doing the murdering.
And the officers should be arrested because they will be the ones trying to make the coup. It's part of their job. But that's my opinion, not any party line. It's just how I feel, not anything I've clearly thought out. Maybe I'm wrong. |
but america is (mostly and should be) defending me and making my life better, and they gave up some of their right to life to there government, which then expended them in a struggle with the US (As some american lives were lost for the whole)
there is a difference between murder and killing
maybe generals should be arrested
Jon Miller
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
Look at Gandhi and Martin Luther King, they both faced situations which could have easily merited violence. However, their alternative means of gaining freedom allowed them considerable victories. |
You are divorcing these victories from their context. First off, I doubt these victories would have happened had they Nazis occupied America or the Japanese India. Secondly, the victories of Indian indpendence and Black civil rightsoccuried in the context of the existence of the USSR as a viable pole of attraction to 3rd world colonies. In the case of the later, the US needed to show to Africa that it would respect the rights of Black Americans, lest they side with the Soviet Union. In the former, a weakened Great Brtiain could not hold on to its Indian Empire if a violent revolution broke out, as was happeneing in China, Indochina, and elsewhere. Nothing happens in a vacuume.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
History and common sense show otherwise. |
this was a response to Vagabond
Jon Miller
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
David: In regards to Communist-officals never being elected. As Che said, never is a very long time. In Europe, and as close to home as Canada, socialist-leaning candidates are being widely elected. It's simply the natural evolution of humanity. |
Not really. In the US, we are moving away from socialism rather than towards it, and many European nations are electing right wing governments.
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The United States is behind most of the western world in respects to many civil rights, such as health care and education. |
How are those civil rights? And if those are rights, then surely the simple act of owning a gun must also be a right, eh?
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But I suspect one day soon the United States will extend these rights as well. It is simply one step closer on the natural path of humanity to socialism. |
I'm telling you, socialism/communism has next to 0 popular support in the US, with no rise on the horizon.
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I'm sure many conservatives one hundred years ago never suspected things as revolutionary as female suffrage or the civil rights movement could have ever taken place. It was simply unthinkable! So while it's true that Socialists do not yet hold a popular mandate, to say that it is impossible that they ever will is foolish. |
OK, they never will in the forseeable future.
Further, how can you argue socialism is the natural progression of man? Does this mean you accept that some things are not determined by society?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
To assume that ideas are inherent in nature is as illogical as assuming hat there is a giant invisible friend watching over the universe who also has a special interest in you. |
Unless, of course, it's true.
The point was, though, as an example, that regardless of what society thought, the earth was not the center of the Universe - someone just had to prove it. Same thing here. Rand and Locke have already adequately proved the existence of natural rights, you just don't accept it.
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Maybe I'm raping his sister. Is it wrong then? |
It isn't murder then 
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Depending on the situation, murdering me may or may not be wrong. |
So you think that the unjustified killing of someone can be justified? That's incoherent.
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We do know that in certain societies, certain classes understood that their lives belonged to their lords, and that those lords had the right to take those lives when ever they saw fit, even for personal amusement. |
Yes, and slaves "belonged" to their masters. Some even believed it - coercion can do a lot to a person's brain.
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03-05-2002 10:21
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