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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
Had they properly understood the dangers that the bureaucracy represented, they would have fought it far more dillegently, rather than waking up to the danger only when it was too late. |
Incorrect - Stalin cared only for power, not freedom or the people.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You may say that Americans would never elect socialists, but never is a very long time, and capitalism doesn't have that long. Besides, it wasn't too long ago that the Communist Party USA was the largest party in the United States in terms of party membership. Someday capitalism will fall. The only question is, will we go forward to socialism or will we become extinct as a species. |
When our concept of brotherhood evolves to the point where we recognise that we all are brothers and sisters, capitalism will no longer be necessary. This will take a while. Until then capitalism will have to do.
Competition is good, but co-operation is better. One day we will all realise this.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
Stalin was the political representative of the bureaucracy. My point stands. |
Stalin was one of Lenin's lieutenants. And Lenin was ruthless himself, ordering the public murder of dissenting kulaks.
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Guynemer
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Okay, who hi-jacked Caligastia's account?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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Stop the damn threadjack.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
One that Lenin unsuccessfully tried to have removed once he realized the danger that Stalin represented. |
The danger to Lenin's power, you mean.
quote:
Lenin's ruthlessness, if it was not merely a forgery of Pipes, needs to be considered in the cnotext of the Civil War and imperialist invasions. Everywhere the Whites tread, they left a wake of death. They were the first fascists, and they represented such a great danger that any aid to them had to be crushed. |
Of course, the Reds started it by shooting the Czar (who probably deserved it) and his entire family (who didn't). Either war is hell, and you can't condemn either side, or you condemn both for their atrocities. One or the other.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
The danger to Lenin's power, you mean. |
Lenin was a bed ridden invalid at the time. The only power he had was what remained of his intellect after his strokes and his moral authority. Hence, his inability to have Stalin removed.
quote:
Of course, the Reds started it by shooting the Czar (who probably deserved it) and his entire family (who didn't). Either war is hell, and you can't condemn either side, or you condemn both for their atrocities. One or the other. |
Who says I don't condemn both. I find the excesses of the Red Terror deplorable, but I find the Whites to be far worse. Every side was engaged in attrocities. Only one side, however, punished those of its own that we found guilty of attrocities, the Bolsheviks. Trotsky didn't need to hang very many Red Army soldiers before they got the idea that raping and looting was not allowed.
Also, the Whites initiated the terror in 1917, with the massacre of 500 Bolsheviks in Moscow. The Red Terror began in 1918 after the Socialist Revolutionaries tried to launch a coup assassinating several leading Bolsheviks and nearly killing Lenin.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:13
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Che,
Sure, there is a lot more to human nature than selfishness. I never meant to say otherwise. However, selfishness is a component of our nature. Like I said, some are more selfish than others. However, I do not believe that you can remove self interest from human beings. It will always be there - it's a part of what we are. So, if you allow people to govern themselves (or at least elect people to govern them) as in a modern democracy, you will get inequality.
I though communism was about equality. You stated that inequality would remain under communism. Now, it's clear that it did in the USSR and does in the other communist states, but I take it you mean even your imagined communist state, which of course will avoid the mistakes of old. Elaborate, please.
I undestand that in a perfect world, communism would be democratic. However, the more I thought about that, the more convinced I became that democracy and communism are incompatible. Because if you allow freedom, you cannot force people to be unselfish.
I don't actually expect to convince you, of course, any more than you will convince me that communism is the way to go. But I am curious... specifically about exactly how you think you could set up a functioning democractic communist state.
-Arrian
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
Who says I don't condemn both. I find the excesses of the Red Terror deplorable, but I find the Whites to be far worse. Every side was engaged in attrocities. Only one side, however, punished those of its own that we found guilty of attrocities, the Bolsheviks. Trotsky didn't need to hang very many Red Army soldiers before they got the idea that raping and looting was not allowed. |
Well if you condemn both you're one of the first - most communists seem to applaud the murder of the Czar's family. I'm also not concerned with scope or who started what, merely with making the point that both sides were deplorable, and tried to justify their atrocities with the atrocities of the other side, which is unacceptable.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
Because if you allow freedom, you cannot force people to be unselfish. |
The answer, of course, is that democracy does not equate to or produce freedom in most cases.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
it is in the self-interest of people to cooperate rather than compete. |
I'm glad we agree that there is, in essence, nothing wrong with the cooperation of the CEOs of, say, Exxon-Mobil and Texaco.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A democracy can easily punish selfishness, either by prison or by simpler means such as ostracism. Furthermore, self-interest != selfishness. It is by self-interest that socialsimand communist will ultiamtely be established, because it is in the self-interest of people to cooperate rather than compete. |
The problem is that you cant force people to be selfless, they have to do it voluntarily. Otherwise you have to throw everyone in prison. Co-operation will come, but it has to be learned.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
I am extremely uncomfortable with the murder of the Romanov's, well, the children anyway. |
I can't see justify killing anyone except the Czar himself.
quote:
I don't know that they had much of a choice. The White armies were approaching Yekaterinaburg, and if the Romanovs fell into their hands, it might have enabled the Whites to rally more people to their evil cause. |
Sure they had a choice - don't commit murder and retain some semblance of morality.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:13
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quote:
Children learn not to be selfish because they are punished by their parents (what an uncomforatble analogy). A democratic society can easily just ostracize those of its members who act selfishly. If your friends and family won't have anything to do with you, you will likely change your ways. |
This, of course, assumes anyone would ostracize anyone else, which, at least in the US, is just not gonna happen.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
The problem is that you cant force people to be selfless, they have to do it voluntarily. Otherwise you have to throw everyone in prison. Co-operation will come, but it has to be learned. |
Bingo.
By the way, Che, I'm not saying that a democracy is incapable of providing more equality than we have presently in the the Western nations. But it will take time. Eventually, through the democractic process, we may arrive at something which approximates communism, but I don't see that happening for a long time.
David,
Democracy as we know it isn't perfect. Clearly not. But I think it's a helluva lot better than the alternatives. Plus, it does allow for changes to be made peacefully.
---
So, for all those socialists and communists out there, convince the voting public in a democracy that you are right, and you will be all set. Though I suspect you will fail for the forseeable future.
And don't blame your inability to gain political control through elections on some vast conspiracy headed up by a bunch of CEO's in a dark room. That's a copout. If your ideas really are that good, they can stand on their own merits and people will see their validity.
-Arrian
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Children learn not to be selfish because they are punished by their parents (what an uncomforatble analogy). A democratic society can easily just ostracize those of its members who act selfishly. If your friends and family won't have anything to do with you, you will likely change your ways. |
But is there anyone who is really trustworthy enough to be responsible for dishing out the punishment for selfish behaviour? Parents are (usually) much wiser than their children because of their life experience, but very seldom (if ever) is there this level of distinction purely on the adult level. For a system like this to work we would need beings superior to humans to administer it.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:13
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Comrades, neighbors, fellow workers. I put before you the case of Comrade Floyd, who has been accused and found guilty of hoarding food stuffs. It has been proposed that he should be ostracized by his neighbors, friends, family, and coworkers.
How votes the community?
[Then everyone votes]
More likely, however, a vigorous debate would ensue on what punishment is necessary, whether or not Comrade Floyd is redeemable, etc, before settling on a proposal for discipling him for his heinous crimes.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Comrades, neighbors, fellow workers. I put before you the case of Comrade Floyd, who has been accused and found guilty of hoarding food stuffs. It has been proposed that he should be ostracized by his neighbors, friends, family, and coworkers.
How votes the community?
[Then everyone votes]
More likely, however, a vigorous debate would ensue on what punishment is necessary, whether or not Comrade Floyd is redeemable, etc, before settling on a proposal for discipling him for his heinous crimes. |
Who found him guilty? You see there still has to be people in authority, and with these kinds of draconian laws in place the potential for abuse of power increases tremendously.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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04-05-2002 00:08
Hwah! 
It may be the case the Lenin ordered some pretty horrible stuff. I niether deny nor accept those claims, at present (my commie masters haven't told me what to think yet 
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