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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
What about Russian classical, they put up a good fight against the Germans.  |
Yeah, but just like WWI, they lost!
Just look at my screen name and you'll see I have a lot of admiration for Russian music, particularly Mussorgsky. However, I can't stand Tchaikovsky, and since he tends to be Russia's standard-bearer...
But aside from that, I just have to say the Germans have overwhelming musical might on their side - Bach(s) Handel, Hadyn, Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt, Schubert, Mendolssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Bruck, Bruckner, Wagner, Mahler, Schoenberg, Orff...It's kinda like a tidal wave of Teutonic Tunesmithing.
And don't forget the Italians, either...Puccini and Verdi can't be sneezed at.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by asleepathewheel
The fact that they weren't included in the game really pisses me off.  if they're not in the XP, i'm boycotting firaxis  |
You could always add it as a new civ.
Just have them start with the "Atlantian" government type, with no corruption or waste, all free units, trade bonus, etc., upgrade all Industrial age units, and transplant the name "Atlantian" on the front for their military, edit the graphics for these units, give them 50 free techs, and voilà! Atlantis is reborn! 
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
You could always add it as a new civ.
Just have them start with the "Atlantian" government type, with no corruption or waste, all free units, trade bonus, etc., upgrade all Industrial age units, and transplant the name "Atlantian" on the front for their military, edit the graphics for these units, give them 50 free techs, and voilà! Atlantis is reborn! |
I'm not going to do Firaxis' job for them!  Why should I have to open the editor, the game should be perfectly balanced from release!
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Miznia
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Madison WI
Jul 2001
time: 23:13
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Siredgar, I think you're holding Mali to a more difficult standard than other civs in your list... Although I'm not really clear on how you're ranking them (Khmer? Babylonians AND Assyrians? Koreans above Persians?). You were talking about picking civs based on "merit," but later you asked whether people had "heard of" Mali...? That seems to be inconsistent...
Mali is the least "filler" civ that there is, south of the Sahara. They were among the first sub-Saharans to go orthodox Muslim...
This page is pretty short, and has a neat map: http://www.nmafa.si.edu/educ/mali/introdj.htm
from that page, in attempt to persuade you:
quote:
The acceptance of Islam by the rulers of Ghana, Mali and Songhay (also spelled Songhey and Songhai) in c. 1000 encouraged trade between the empires and North Africa. The introduction of Islam also instituted more cosmopolitan social structures, such as universities, world religions and, especially, centralized state systems and military forces.
At its peak, the Mali Empire extended across West Africa to the Atlantic Ocean and incorporated an estimated 40 to 50 million people. The administration of such an enormous territory was formidable and relied on the establishment of a government sensitive to the diversity of the land, population and cultures and accepting of the indigenous rulers and their customs. What distinguished the empires of West Africa, particularly Mali and later Songhay, was their ability to centralize political and military power while allowing the local rulers to maintain their identities along side Islam. The imperial powers were located in active commercial centers like Djenne, Timbuktu and Gao.
The wealth of the Mali Empire is illustrated by the Mali emperor Mansa Musa's pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324. His entourage reportedly included thousands of soldiers, officials and attendants, 100 camels each carrying 300 pounds of gold, and 500 maids and slaves to serve Mansa Musa's senior wife. Once in Egypt, Mansa Musa paid homage to the sultan with gifts of gold. He distributed so much gold that its value was decreased by 10 to 25 percent.
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Miznia
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:13
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quote:
I think that the number 1 civ of all time was definately the Atlanteans. I mean, come on, they contributed so much to civilization. They built the great pyramids, not the Egyptians. They also built the pyramids in the Yucatan, not the Mayans. They also were more advanced than any others until the modern age. They were fantastically advanced in medicine,living far longer than even we today are. They could also fly and had submarines. |
Heck yeah...and their leader can be...well...then their attributes can be...errmmm...and their city names-- whoops...uh...
Hey! Wake up and sniff the roses, pal! There is no historical evidence of the existance of Atlantis. Plato writes a bit on it for his book the Republic, but most are inclined to see it as a creative illustration. If it did exist, perhaps he meant Crete or the island of Thera. How the heck is it that they suddenly seem to have "built the great pyramids", gone to the Yucatan to build pyramids, becoming bloody advanced in just about anything, having subs, and...flying machines? It's a little ridiculous. As I am sure that you can not back up this statement with anything solid, we'll let you off lightly for this gross error in historical judgement. You might have been taken in by numerous dunderheaded pyschics or something to that effect. Don't buy it. There ain't no evidence of Atlantis, and I'd be a might surprised to see that there ever will be.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by History Guy
Heck yeah...and their leader can be...well...then their attributes can be...errmmm...and their city names-- whoops...uh...
Hey! Wake up and sniff the roses, pal! There is no historical evidence of the existance of Atlantis. Plato writes a bit on it for his book the Republic, but most are inclined to see it as a creative illustration. If it did exist, perhaps he meant Crete or the island of Thera. How the heck is it that they suddenly seem to have "built the great pyramids", gone to the Yucatan to build pyramids, becoming bloody advanced in just about anything, having subs, and...flying machines? It's a little ridiculous. As I am sure that you can not back up this statement with anything solid, we'll let you off lightly for this gross error in historical judgement. You might have been taken in by numerous dunderheaded pyschics or something to that effect. Don't buy it. There ain't no evidence of Atlantis, and I'd be a might surprised to see that there ever will be. |
Um...History Guy...you just may very well be the only person who missed the sarcasm of the post you were attacking. I don't think he was seriously advocating Atlantis...
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The Eliminator
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Eliminatorville
Nov 2001
time: 23:13
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Oh brother, gimme a break with all of this "Korea" talk. South Africa, Uganda, and New Zealand rank higher than Korea.
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ScreamingViking
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Calgary, AB, Canada
May 2002
time: 22:13
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24 civs in total? My extra picks would be:
1. Mongols (Asian, expansionist, militaristic). Special unit: Raider (maybe a 5-1-3 unit similar to knight). Leader: Ghengis.
2. Vikings (European, militaristic, commercial). Special unit: Berserker. Leader: Canute or Beowulf (in my opinion, as appropriate as Gandhi and Joan of Arc). Would include Danes and Swedes, as well as Norwegians.
3. Inca (American, industrious, militaristic). Don't know much about them besides Maccu Picchu and rope/knot communications.
4. Spaniards (European, expansionistic, industrious). Special unit: Conquistador. Leader: Phillip (Europe does have too much estrogen). Probably would include Portuguese.
5. Celts (European, militaristic, industrious). Special Unit: Footman. Leader: Boadicea.
6. Ottoman Turks (Middle Eastern, religious, militaristic). Special unit: Dragoon-type horseman. Leader: Sulayman.
7. Israel (Middle East, religious, expansionistic). Special Unit: Mossad(?). Leader: Golda Meir, Rubin, or David.
8. Carthaginian/Phoenician (Mediterranean, expansionistic, militaristic). Special Unit: Elephant Raider. Leader: Hannibal.
Wild-Card Entry: Canadians (American, scientific, industrious). Special Unit: Peacekeeper (a more defensive infantry with little attack powers). Leader: Peirre Trudeau. Not a grand civilization, but great for the diplomatic course of victory. Who hates Canada?
I would change a few of the specialty units and civs (eg. The Americans would drop the F-15 for the rifleman-offshoot Minuteman, the English drop Man-O-War for Crusader, etc.)
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JamesJKirk
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Dixon, CA USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:13
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Entering the whole Mali discussion-
Many West African civs would be very good to have in civ, many like the Yoruba and Asante, as well as Mali had much culture, and often efficient administrative systems, as well as military success (not to mention UU candidates) I think it's still part of a colonial mindset that really makes us shrug off achievements Africa made prior to European domination, and think that it was an untouched continent prior to European contact.
I personal don't know a damn thing about Korea, but it seems like people here do, and this it's worthy, and that's why I'm willing to give it a listen, although I might be personally disposed to not think of any significant reason to have them on my own.
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siredgar
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New York, NY
Nov 2001
time: 00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Miznia
...I think Japan owes much more to China than to Korea. The main thing Japan got from Korea is the language (like grammar and some phonology). This is the same thing as saying "the English got their language from the Germans," except that the Japanese-Korean division is probably even older. That's hard to say, but at any rate there's a lot more difference between Japanese and Korean.
Miznia |
That is not true.
About Korea...
There are two principle reasons why Korean civilization is not well-known. First, the Koreans have mostly kept to themselves and second, the Japanese stole or destroyed most important artifacts, documents, and buildings.
Indeed while the Koreans made some amazing achievements in the arts, science, philosophy, and religion, they did not spread these ideas outside of their own civilization. For a long time, the Koreans were even more arrogant than the Chinese in their sense of self-importance and self-sufficiency. As a result, for most of their history, they only dealt with the Chinese and ignored others, including incoming Westerners. Not surprisingly, that is primarily why Korea suffered a similar fate to that of China.
Regardless, the Koreans had a remarkable civilization that was far ahead of its time. The achievements in of themselves should be noteworthy and often surprise many people who are unfamiliar with Korea’s “hidden” history. I don’t know if the Koreans should be in the top 16, but they definitely have more of a right to than the Aztecs, Mongols, and Zulu. In fact, I don’t think they should be that far out of the top 16—probably right behind the Spanish, close to the Portuguese and Dutch, but ahead of the Vikings.
Anyhow, the Koreans and the Japanese are highly related, both genetically and culturally. That is why there are constant comparisons. In my opinion, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that they essentially belong to a single civilization. Contrary to popular perception (i.e., that of the “masses”, particularly regarding the Koreans), they are quite apart from the Chinese even though they both received a great deal of influence from them.
For a long time, Korea was a very powerful, independent “nation”. At one point in early history, Chinese and Korean kingdoms heavily competed for territory in what is now Manchuria and Siberia (land that is roughly the size of Western Europe). At that time, the inhabitants of Japan were still relatively “primitive” in many ways and had not even made the first steps toward what we would call a civilization.
In fact, Korea had an undeniably influential impact on Japan. There is significant evidence that much of early Japan comes from distinctly Korean, not Chinese, origins. Korean migrants provided much of Japanese stock. Some of this blended with Polynesian bloodlines that had arrived in the southern part of the islands, others with existing inhabitants on the main islands and to some extent with the Ainu in the north. They also brought rice farming and other rudiments of civilized life to Japan.
Example:
“By about 400 b.c. Korean farmers migrated across the Sea of Japan (called the Eastern Sea by Koreans) to southern Japan. This was the beginning of farming villages in Japan and much of the modern Japanese population is descended from these immigrants. The Japanese and Korean people are really close cousins.”
http://www.pbs.org/hiddenkorea/history.htm
Later, the Koreans sent artisans and priests to the Japanese to introduce advances in the arts, science, philosophy, and religion that they not only learned from the Chinese, but had also developed indigenously, too. Indeed, even much of what was derived from the Chinese had a distinctly Korean nature to it. Thus, Korea helped Japan makes its first steps toward “civilization”. The Japanese greatly preserved much of what they learned at this time to this day. In fact, some historians have argued that a great deal of what we consider traditional Japanese culture today is really derived directly from ancient Korea.
In the end, the Koreans introduced their own techniques in ceremonial burial, bronze working, warrior code, monarchy, astronomy, geography, calendar-making, divination, ink-writing, painting, and farming to Japan all in distinctly Korean ways.
On the other hand, sadly to say, much of Korean civilization has been destroyed... at the hands of the Japanese. Situated on the mainland, the Koreans were forced to fight many wars to preserve their independence against the increasingly powerful Chinese (and later the emergent Mongols). The Japanese, separated by the seas, were not. They began developing a strong civilization they could now call distinctly their own, away from the troubles of the mainland. This relative isolation (and the lack of significant resources) later allowed them to quickly adopt recent Western advances in technology and quietly grow in power while avoiding foreign encroachment.
The rest is history.
We tend to focus too much on recent history. The 300 years have not treated Korea very well and that's another reason why many people don't know about their civilization very well.
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04-05-2002 10:44
Such a beautiful statement! I must write that one down! 
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