14-05-2002 02:49									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Heres an idea for peacetime leader development.

With the right advance you can build a single priest. With a priest you can build a temple with the right resources. The priest is mobile though so he can move to another region (where they cant build a temple since there is no priest) and he can allow construction of a temple in that region. Temples have one level of effect on morale (for example) temples with priests have more profound effects. With time and the right circumstances (peace, war, good harvests, etc ) empty temples generate a priest. Priests can move up the priestly scale and become bishops (with good works). Bishops can build cathedrals. With time and the correct infrastructure you spawn archbishops etc.

This concept of allowing buildings through units that then allow more advanced units could be used for the judiciary and bureaucrats and other goverment structures/buildings.

	14-05-2002 03:17									#92
	Put an end to popups!

Forgot to comment about the tactical combat model.

One of the things that may make it more efficiently is to keep down the number of units per side. Maybe somewhere around 10 would be enough. The size of the units though would depend on the combined size of the two armies facing each other. For example two armies with 1000 men each break down into 10 companies each of 100 men. In contrast, with an army of 10000 vs 1000 the maneuver units would be 1000 each on one side and either 1 unit of 1000 (or possibly 10 of 100) on the other. In the latter case there would need to be some indication of unit size so that you wouldnt think 100 men were in fact 1000.

A huge degree of flexibilty could be included here if the generals were allowed to set up the size and composition of the maneuver units (which could be linked to the leaders experience).

	14-05-2002 23:03									#93
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Version 2.6 of the Candle'Bre Tactical Combat System

Unit Specifications

Unit Name: Infantry
Attack Rating: 35
Armour Rating 40
Speed 10
Hit Points 8
Tactical Movement Rate 4
Damage 1-8
Experience 0 (at start default)
Morale 60% (conscript default)

Special Ability Slot 1 (None)

Special Ability Slot 2 (None)

Cost: 10g

Notes: The grunts of the realm, infantry are cheap to train and generally plentiful in number. As the game grinds on, tech advances make this one of the most cost effective units on the board.
…

Unit Name: Mercenary
Attack Rating: 40 * (see below)
Armour Rating: 30
Speed 14
Hit Points 6
Tactical Movement Rate 5
Damage 1-6 * (see below)
Experience 0 (Default at start)
Morale 50% (conscript default)

Special Ability Slot 1 Bounty. Mercenaries may receive either a 1g or 2g incentive, paid for all mercs in your force. Once paid, the mercs will get a +5 increase to their attack rating, and +1 damage per gold bounty offered.

Special Ability Slot 2: Mercenary units do not gain the benefits of increases in unit technology.

Cost: 10g

Notes: Mercenaries may NEVER outnumber your regular troops (though the numbers may be equal) in a given province. If they do, the mercenaries will wrest control of the province and toss your troops out.

The Mercenary is something of an oddity in Candle'Bre. Their warrior code places strict rules on what is and is not acceptable, and as such they shun newfangled advances in armour and weapons. They begin the game as slightly superior to Infantry (once you pay the bounty anyway), but end the game lagging quite far behind....the price of adhering too long to outdated traditions.

…

Unit Name: Pikeman
Attack Rating: 20
Armour Rating: 60
Speed: 6
Hit Points: 12
Tactical Movement Rate:4
Damage: 2-5
Experience 0 (Default Start)
Morale 60% (Default Conscript Morale)

Special Ability Slot 1: No Morale loss if charged by Cavalry.

Special Ability Slot 2: Deal double damage to Cavalry units.

Cost: 14g

Notes: Pikemen are stoically brave and sturdy, platemail clad soldiers who think nothing of facing down a cavalry charge. Not so hot on the offense, but if you're looking for defensive stopping power, look no further.
…

Unit Name: Skirmisher
Attack Rating: 25
Armour Rating: 25
Speed: 16
Hit Points: 12
Tactical Movement Rate: 10
Damage: 2-7
Experience 0 (Default Start)
Morale 70% (Default Conscript Morale)

Special Ability Slot 1: Initiative – Skirmishers get an extra attack the first time they engage an enemy unit in a given battle. They may return fire up to two times when attacked, with no loss of morale (game standard is that a given unit stack may return fire as many times a round as it is attacked, but it loses 5% of its morale per strike after the first).

Special Ability Slot 2: Ambush - Skirmishers are invisible in hill or forest terrain (tactical battle map). In battle, units moving into such terrain containing a hiding Skirmisher will be attacked by surprise (Double the skirmisher's attack value, ignore defender's armour value). Being subject to an Ambush costs the unit being ambushed all of its remaining movement points for that turn, and the unit is unable to attack. * (see below)

* Skirmishers can detect other skirmishers - Chance of detection is Morale % of the scouting unit. Scouting units can "check" all areas within their LOS in a given turn, but they must forego all other activities that turn (no movement, no attacking) - Note that an Ambush is not an attack per se, and would be allowable even if the unit was checking for hiding enemy skirmishers.

*Rangers (see below) stacked with hiding Skirmishers make them impossible to detect by any means. Not that a Ranger stacking with a "searching" Skirmisher stack would negate the abilities of a Ranger stacked with a hiding Skirmisher stack.

Cost: 18g

Notes: The ultimate tag along troop for your expensive cavalry units, these guys make superb scouts and are wonderful in an attrition/harassment role. With enough tech advances on the board, the even eclipse Infantry in terms of value for the money.
…

Unit Name: Archer
Attack Rating: 45
Armour Rating: 25
Speed: 12
Hit Points: 6
Tactical Movement Rate: 5
Damage 3-6
Experience 0 (Default Start)
Morale 60% (Default Conscript Morale)

Special Ability Slot 1 Ranged attack: Archers may strike targets up to four hexes away for full damage, and up to six hexes away for half damage.

Special Ability Slot 2 The first non-ranged unit to attack a stack of Archers get shot at twice (The archer stack gets to defend itself twice (without morale penalty) from the first attacking stack. Once per combat only.

Cost: 20g

Notes: Essentially "Light Artillery Support" for your Infantry and Cavalry, you can never have too many archers in the field.
…

Unit Name: Cavalry
Attack Rating: 60
Armour Rating: 60
Speed: 14
Hit Points: 16
Tactical Movement Rate: 10
Damage: 5-12*
Experience 0 (Default Start)
Morale 75% (Default Conscript Morale)

Special Ability Slot 1: Charge – Takes one full combat round to set up. Doubles damage dealt to the stack subject to the charge, and reduces morale of the survivors by 20%

Special Ability Slot 2

Cost: 25g

Notes: The undisputed master of the battlefield. No other unit in the game is more well rounded, tough, and durable. Of course, no other unit in the game is more expensive either. Until the late game Infantry-Eclipse, it will your Cavalry charges that your enemy remembers.
…

*****

· Change to tech Rules: Any time a new technology refers to giving a unit type a bonus of +1/+1 to it’s A/D values, this should be converted to +5 to Attack Rating and Armour on the chart above.

Unit Experience

Units represent the lowest form of mobile unit on the map. As such, they tend to learn (gain experience) from most anything…and, they learn pretty quickly, at that. For every 3 victories or 5 defeats, surviving units gain 1 point of experience.

Experience
0-1 Conscript None- Use Default Entries
2-4 Regular +10% Morale, +1 Speed
5-9 Veteran +5% Morale, +5 Armour, +1 Damage
10+ Champion +5% Morale, +1 Speed, +5 Armour, +2 Damage

· For every point of experience above 10, the unit gains +1 Hit Point

· When a unit gets 10 or more Experience Points, each time that unit participates in combat, there is a 2% chance of generating a War Captain.

War Captains

War Captains are legends of the battlefield. They are exceptional individuals who rise through the ranks of the Army, and through the hardships of battle, have come to understand the art of war and gain the respect of their peers.

War Captains are attack-capable units! Your War Captain unit may have special abilities that are reflective of the unit type that spawned them. For their basic stats, consult the table below:

Synopsis of abilities when upgrading from Elite units:

· +30 Morale
· +10 Attack
· Multiply Hit Points by two (2)
· “Dice up” damage

War Captains also provide benefits to whatever stack they are traveling with. These benefits are outlined below:

· +1 Speed for every 4 experience points the War Captain has

· The Morale value of the War Captain becomes the Morale Value of the stack he’s with

· Morale loss due to combat is halved for units containing a War Captain (this effect is cumulative with a General's ability to reduce Morale loss due to combat, if a General is close enough to effect the unit stack in question).

Other Notes: Note that if a War captain is assigned to travel with a unit, he will almost assuredly have a higher speed than the unit he’s traveling with (this, and his enhanced movement rate, can facilitate rapid mid-battle transfers to turbulent spots on the battlefield). This means that the stack containing the War Captain can attack twice per turn…an important consideration for purposes of hammering down enemy unit stack morale.

War Captain Experience

These individuals gain 1 point of experience per two victories, or three losses. When a War Captain reaches 20 Experience points, he is automatically promoted to a General.

Generals

When a War Captain gains 20 Experience Points, he is automatically promoted to the rank of General, and becomes one of the following “character classes” (Myrmidon, Ranger, Knight, or Rogue—see table below). The 20 Experience is divided evenly between the two cornerstone abilities of a General (Tactical Ability and Command Ability – All Generals a player gains via promotion begin with scores of 10 in each ability). Each time a General gains a level of experience, the owning player gets 20 additional points to assign to these abilities. These points may be assigned any way the player wishes (see below for exact effects of Command Ability and Tactical Ability)--at level four, the two numbers will sum to 80.

Upon reaching second level, the player owning a general gets to choose a special ability for the General, from the following table:

Synopsis of Abilities gained when upgrading from War Captains:
· +15 Attack
· +10 Armour
· Hit Points Doubled
· +2 Movement
· “Dice up” +1 Damage
· +2 Speed
· +10 Morale

Summary of a General's Abilities as they relate to other units on the field/stacked with the General:

General attributes are as follows:

A. Generals share all traits in common with War Captains (above)

B. All units stacking with the General gain +1 hex of movement per combat round.

C. Depending on the General's experience, he may effect nearby units just as though he were in the stack WITH those units. To determine the extent of the General's abilities in this regard, consult the table below:

Sum of TacAbil and CommAbil:
20-45: General can effect all friendly units within a 1 Hex radius as though he were stacking WITH those units

46-69: General can effect all friendly units within a 2 Hex radius as though he were stacking WITH those units

70-80: General can effect all friendly units within a 3 Hex radius as though he were stacking WITH those units. Additionally, any enemy units inside that radius see their morale drop by 5% per battle round, calculated AFTER all other modifiers have been applied (ie - the presence of an enemy War Captain in an enemy stack that is inside this General's radius of command does NOTHING to counter the loss of Morale caused by this General).



Experience

Generals gain experience in two ways. First, by leading men to victory (15pts per battle won), and second, by demonstrating their own combat prowess (1pt per unit killed by the General on the field of battle). There is no experience gain for battles lost of withdrawn from. Victory is the General’s measure of success.

Level Experience Range
1 0-40
2 41-120
3 120-250
4 251-750

· 1600 Experience Required to advance each level beyond 4

At Second level, the General may choose to gain a special ability from the following list:

Myrmidon
Personal Improvement: For each level the General increases (Max. of four), gain +10 to Hit Points, Attack Rating, Armour Rating and Morale. Gain +1 Speed and + 1 Move

Frenzy: All friendly units with this General gain +2 on their damage rolls, and the ability to execute Flank/Charge orders. (bonus is +3 at level three, and +5 at level 4)

Terror: Enemy troops automatically lose an additional 3% morale every round combat occurs when facing this general (becomes 5% per round at level 3, and 7% per round at level 4)

Ranger
Personal Improvement: For each level the General increases (Max. of four), gain +10 to Hit Points, Attack Rating, Armour Rating and Morale. Gain +1 Speed and + 1 Move

Pathfinding: Units traveling with this general are not bound by any terrain restrictions.

Herbalism: Damaged units traveling with this general may heal their wounds even while moving (2hp per day – Complete healing if not moving). Per day rate increases to 4 at level three, and complete at level 4.

Knight
Personal Improvement: For each level the General increases (Max. of four), gain +10 to Hit Points, Attack Rating, Armour Rating and Morale. Gain +1 Speed and + 1 Move

Awe: All friendly troops traveling with this General gain +10% Morale. This bonus increases to 12% at level three, and 15% at level four.

Servitude: Unit upkeep costs are halved for every unit in this General’s Army.

Rogue
Personal Improvement: For each level the General increases (Max. of four), gain +10 to Hit Points, Attack Rating, Armour Rating and Morale. Gain +1 Speed and + 1 Move

Ambush!: All friendly units traveling with the General gain +1 Movement, +1 Speed, and the “Initiative” special ability. (at level 3, this bonus is +2/+2, and at level four, it’s +3/+3).

Scouting: Sum your General’s TacAbil and ComAbil, and divide that number by twenty. The result (dropping all fractions), is the number of free turns of movement and attack this General’s army gets before the opposing side can respond.

Advances beyond fourth level

The General Gets the benefits listed in “Personal Improvement”

· Other special abilities to be considered as the system evolves


The Order of Battle, Troop Placement, and Battlefield LOS

Battle Setup

Two opposing forces meet. To determine who must place their forces first, consult the following table, in order:

No special leaders present - The player with the fastest troops (highest speed) places his units last.

War Captain present - This trumps the fastest unit present on the opposing side.

General - This trumps War Captains present on the opposing side.

If two War Captains are present, then the War Captain with the highest experience places his troops last. If equal, revert to Initiative factors.

If two Generals are present, then the General with the higher TacAbil rating places his troops last. If equal, revert to War Captains present.

If everything is equal across the board, the defending side places their troops last.

Dividing the Army

An army without a leader will divide itself along troop type lines (all the Infantry in one stack, all the archers in one stack, etc.), regardless of morale levels (that is to say, units of various morale levels will stack together by type, by default....one of the effects of which is that the same unit might get multiple attacks per combat round as the Elites make their attack, then the Veterans, and finally, the conscripts), and while this can be effective--see the later notes on morale--a general commanding the army has a vast array of divisional options available. For every 5 points of CommAbil the General possesses, you get the ability to create 1 additional unit stack. (Default number of unit stacks is equal to the number of troop types in your army, so if a General with a 25 CommAbil is leading a force of Pike, Archers, Infantry, Cav, and Mercenaries (five default stacks), he would be able to divide his force into as many as ten different stacks.

Note that all unit stacks must be homogenous (must contain all of the same unit type).

The Battle Map

The Battle Map is a hex-grid, 40x40, with opponents lined up on either side. Placement is made on the first two columns of your side, modified by your TacAbil. For every 10 points in TacAbil your General possesses, you gain access to another column (such that a General with 40 TacAbil would have access to the first 6 columns on his side for troop placement (you get the first and second column free, and the next four per his ability).

There is a “Fog of War” in effect on the battle map such that trees, hills, and other terrain block your view of approaching enemy units. Given that you begin quite far from your enemy, the opening rounds of a battle are somewhat tense, with each side feeling its way blindly toward the other. Thus, high ground plays a significant role not only in the battle, but in scouting the lay of the land before the battle begins.

Terrain Effects

Terrain effects are all cumulative.

High Ground provides +5 to Armor Values of defending troops. Archers firing from high ground get +1 Range and +1 Damage on their attacks.

Low Ground - Attackers striking from lower ground are at -1 to their damage range, and –5 On their Attack factor

Forested hexes - Archers are -5 on their Attack factor and damage dealt when firing into a forested hex. Cavalry may not charge into a forested hex. Units defending in a forested hex are at +10 on their Armour rating. Cavalry is at -5, and Archers are at -10 when attacking/firing from a forested tile.

Wall, fence, or other impediment: Forces behind such walls or structures get a +5 to their Armor Ratings, and archers firing into those positions are at -10 on their Attack Factor.
All units attacking into such positions are –2 to damage dealt.

Water: Takes one full turn to cross one hex of water. All movement ends when the unit in question enters the water. Units in the water lose –15 to Armor and Attack Values

Fortifications and Ramparts: Each level of fortification (see core rules) is "worth" 80 points of damage. Fortifications may ONLY be attacked by siege engines. All units behind fortifications gain +15 on their Armor ratings, and all damage dealt to units behind fortifications suffer -1 damage for any attacks made to them PER LEVEL OF FORTIFICATION (this is somewhat abstracted....since siege ladders and archer's towers are not represented in the game, the fact that non archer units CAN damage fortified units implies the existence of these structures.

Conversely, every 80 points of damage that siege engines cause to the fortifications in place reduces the fortified army's bonus by 1.


Defender Advantages

If the defender has “fortified” ((f) command for armies), consider the following to be also in effect:

Archers: First round shot is made with a +20 Attack Rate

All troops are presumed to have fashioned whatever makeshift fortifications they could (ranging from hiding behind a barrel to a simple palisade) – See “Wall, fence, or other impediment”, above)

Unit Facing
Head-to-Head units get no particular modifiers when fighting.

Attacking from the left or right front flank gives the attacker a +5 bonus.

Attacking from the left or right rear flank gives the attacker a +10 bonus

Attacking from behind gives the attacker a +20 bonus.

-=Vel=-
(mentally crossing his fingers that this is...closer.... )

Last edited by Velociryx on 18-05-2002 at 17:33

	14-05-2002 23:17									#94
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Tactical Combat Model ver 2.6 - Continuation

Disruption, Unit Morale, Losing Morale, Routes, Captures, and Recovering Morale

Disruption
Any time a unit takes damage, it must make a morale check to see if it has become disrupted. Disrupted units are unable to move or launch attacks, but may defend at their full strength. At the start of each side's combat round, any disrupted units on that side get to make a morale check to see if they have recoverd from Disruption. Note the morale effect of leader units, and the scant chance that units stacked with leaders will become disrupted (thus, leaders provide no additional bonus when making morale or recovery from disruption checks).

Morale is used in two ways in this combat system. First, it is a measure of a unit's resolve...its willingness to stand toe to toe with the enemy. Second, it is tied in with the overall chance that the unit has of actually dealing damage to the enemy.

Morale decreases when a unit comes under more than a single attack in a given combat round (there are other things which may also cause morale to decrease--cavalry charge--but the "usual way" morale decreases is through multiple attacks occuring in the same turn.

For every attack beyond the first, a unit's morale decreases by 5%.

When a unit's morale drops to 20% or less, that unit is in danger of routing. Routed units become disorganized and panicky, and are easy prey for more stable, organized units.

Chances of Routing
Any time a unit with 20% or less comes under fire, that unit must make a morale check. Take the morale of the attacking unit, minus the morale of the defending unit, and you get the % chance that the unit will route.

Units that have routed will immediately move their full allowance of movement points back toward the side of the battle map where they were placed. This occurs each time the routed unit is subsequently attacked as well.

Attacking Routed Units
Routed units do get to fight back, but because their morale is so low, odds are that they won't do much damage. Any damage sustained BY a routed unit is considered to be half kills, half captures.

Recovering Morale
Any combat round that a unit does not move, attack, or defend itself, that unit recovers 5% of its morale value, back to whatever its standard maximum is.

Reorganizing & Recovering from a Route
A routed unit begins checking to recover from the route once it has at least a 30% morale. Whatever the unit's current morale is, that is the % chance of it recovering from the route on any given combat round.

The Presence of a War Captain with a routed unit increases morale recovery by 5% per combat round.

The presence of a General with a routed unit increases its morale recovery by 10% per combat round.

Other Notes and Miscellany

Only one 'leader' unit (War Captain/General) may stack with any unit stack (but several War Captains could be present in an army).

Only one General may be present in any army.

Cancellation of effect: In instances such as two Rogue Generals facing off against each other, each with the special ability "Scouting" (free turns), the effect is negated.

Things that Decrease Morale:
Multiple attacks to the same unit in the same turn (5% per attack beyond the first)

Cavalry Charges (20%)

Fate Cards played during a battle that declare a reduction in enemy morale (varies)

Being inside the "zone" of a powerful enemy General (5% per round)

Facing an infamous opponent reduces morale by 5% across the board at the start of the battle (the men are somewhat fearful of facing an opponent known for his lack of mercy) - start of combat

Terror - Myrmidon's special ability

Things that slow down the decrease in Morale:
The presence of a general (halves morale loss rates)

The presence of a war captain (halves morale loss rates)

Things that increase Morale:
The presence of a general (stack's morale becomes = to general's morale) - possible radial effect (if a War Captain is inside the Zone of a powerful general, then the War Captain's stack gets the General's Morale, NOT the War Captain's)

The presence of a war captain (stack's morale becomes = general's morale)

Fate Cards played during a battle that declare an increase in your morale

Spending a full combat round not moving, attacking or defending

Awe - Knight's special ability

Combat Experience (Regulars get +10% Morale, Veterans get an additional +5%, and Elites get another +5%)


Forced Marches
Forced Marches can be made both at the Strategic (main map) and the Tactical (Battle map) level.

Sometimes, it is necessary to rapidly move troops from place to place, either to counter a new threatening move or to rapidly get men to the scene of an impending engagement. Forced marches allow you to do just that, but there's a price to be paid.

First, understand that a unit can execute one and ONLY one forced march per turn (or combat round, in the case of a forced march on the battle map).

When the forced march order is given, all units get double their movement points (on the strategic map infantry units are 2 move, mounted units are 4 move - On the Battle map double the unit's movement points). When those units arrive at their destination, they do so at half morale, and minus 2HP. Note that this is a risky way to get troops into position on the tactical map!

Other Notes and Miscellany

Only one 'leader' unit (War Captain/General) may stack with any unit stack (but several War Captains could be present in an army).

Only one General may be present in any army.

Cancellation of effect: In instances such as two Rogue Generals facing off against each other, each with the special ability "Scouting" (free turns), the effect is negated.

******

Explanations to go with version 2.0 of the Tactical Combat System

Calculation of "to hit" chance is as follows:

Attack Value of attacker + (Morale of attacker * 0.75) = Base Chance to hit

Base Chance to hit - Armour Value of defender = % Chance of hitting target




-=Vel=-

Last edited by Velociryx on 18-05-2002 at 17:45

	14-05-2002 23:19									#95
	Put an end to popups!

I know you've probably beaten this point to death but re: cavalry charges , most times cavalry was implemented in other tactical games as having shock ability. Namely units defending against cavalry charges were subject to a morale check else they would become either disorganized/routed.

Don't know if this level of complexity works for CB, but it simulates the effect of ground troops facing cavalry charges ("seeing the elephant" as it were).

Likewise wall units don't prevent cavalry charges but likewise do not require the morale check. If memory serves there were some good Napoleonic games that had infantry with ability to form squares to fend off cav charges. Squares didn't necessarily prevent the charge from happening as the cavalry would oft times bypass the squares for a softer target deeper in the enemy ranks. Charge/attacks were allowed only in a pie shaped swath based upon the facing of the cav unit and were subject to dispersal from ranged opportunity fire attacks.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 14-05-2002 at 23:26

	14-05-2002 23:25									#96
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::Nodding:: Yep...good call! I made sure to include a wampum big morale penalty for being on the wrong side of the charge!

-=Vel=-

	14-05-2002 23:52									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx ::Nodding:: Yep...good call! I made sure to include a wampum big morale penalty for being on the wrong side of the charge! -=Vel=-

Hey Vel,

I saw what you did in the special slot for cav units. It appears if I read it correctly that the morale penalty is applied after resoultion of combat. I guess my point was it normally was applied before resoultion of combat in other games. In this way you could have units at say 40 morale predeclaration of charge. Charge declaration happens dropping them immediately to say 20 morale. Then combat resolution and an immediate surrender check.

They way it stands now the defending unit of a charge would still end up at the same morale (assuming a successful hit) but would require another unit to successfully attack before resolving a surrender check.

Might be too overpowering for cav units tho'.

Especially in concert with Rogue general of significant level with all those free turns/charges.

By the by I assume two Rogues with equal amount of free moves means no advantage either way.

	15-05-2002 01:19									#98
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Master Og! Just made a pretty substantial update to the combat doc....changed the version to 2.1...added in a whole new section re: Routing and Captures, put in the cancellation effect as you mentioned with the two Rogue Generals, and a few other points besides!

Quite so, on the Cavalry...I'm thinking putting the morale effect on the front end would prolly unbalance them, but....the changes and additions I made with regards to routing units works pretty well with the cav as they exist at present....cav charges, deals its damage and the morale blow, if the unit falls below it's threshold, it rolls a morale check after recieving the charge, and potentially scoots off to recover. Subsequent attacks against the routed unit would result in juicy captures too!

-=Vel=-

	15-05-2002 01:41									#99
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It looks like its really starting to pull together. So where's the beta version for testing?

	15-05-2002 02:30									#100
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LOL...that's still some ways off....when we get v0.1 (our in-house alpha, to test the basics of the game structure and make sure we're on the right road), combat will be auto-calc'd....so we've got some ground to cover before we get to the point described in the tactical combat thingy I'm doodling out....but it's been a GREAT creative exercise, and it has really helped me see what kinna system you guys are looking for.

Still plenty of time and room for discussion....as I said, this isn't something we'll be starting work on anytime in the immediacy, so keep the ideas rolling in! I'll continue to tweak and work on it for as long as there's interest!

-=Vel=-

	15-05-2002 02:57									#101
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good stuff, two minor points:

What is a "Myrmidon"? Aren't those the wierd creatures from Myth with the double blades and such?

Please, it might not be such a good idea to use Civ3's exact experience levels. On our old forum, I suggested names like "champion," etc... just doesn't seem original to me.

	15-05-2002 02:58									#102
	Put an end to popups!

It really is starting to pull together isn't it?

I wish I had more time to closely analyse this system at the moment, but it certainly looks like things are on the right track.

Dayum! ... Vel ... where do all these ideas come from? It is almost impossible to keep up with all the developments in the design for this game. I can't wait to get my hands on v0.1 ... even though it will be a very bare-bones version it should be much easier for us to see the way ahead more clearly once we've played several games. Sweeeet.

	15-05-2002 03:00									#103
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Myrmidon is a Greek word ( ::waves to Markos!:: )....they were the soldiers who acompanied Achilles during the trojan war...I thought it a heroic title...

As to the experience levels....those are actually pretty generic in wargames....we can always come up with other titles, but "conscript" just doesn't have many synonyms...still, we can make changes here and there, that's true!

-=Vel=-

	15-05-2002 03:19									#104
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Myrmidon is a Greek word ( ::waves to Markos!:: )....they were the soldiers who acompanied Achilles during the trojan war...I thought it a heroic title...

It also pays homage to one of the best fantasy 4x TBS games of all times, MOM, where Myrmidons featured prominently!

	15-05-2002 05:43									#105
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Recruit might be an alternative to conscript.

	15-05-2002 16:44									#106
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Vel

Heres another point to consider, unit facing. Its got to be there to make tactical combat feasible.

	15-05-2002 17:22									#107
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I feel that perhaps archers and charging cavalry should also have a disadvantage when attacking from forest. It's going to be hard to get those arrows out accurately...

The way Battleground: Waterloo had it was that a unit entering wooded terrain lost formation - and cavalry had to be in formation to charge, it taking a turn or two outside forest to regain formation.

	15-05-2002 18:18									#108
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Hiya Stoo! Looks like I cross-posted with ya....didn't see your comment till this morning, but thank ya! As to where the ideas come from....the answer to that question is you guys! I got inspired by all the fantastic ideas here, and figured it'd be a shame to just let them sit there and go to waste....especially in light of the fact that the do so much to enhance the game!

Chowlett! Outstanding thought, good sir! I shall duly update the terrain modifiers with something appropriate!

Spencer....good call re: "Recruit" instead of "Conscript"....I like it, but there's something about the word "Conscript" that really just....fits with my vision of the game. Could make use of Champion instead of Elites tho....I'm diggin' that....other ideas for the ranks?

Trooper! Dang, I can't believe I forgot that, but you're right....The Myrmidons of MoM!

-=Vel=-
(will be making an update to v2.5 later on today!)

	15-05-2002 18:35									#109
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Its only a small point, but "conscript" as a term isnt really valid until the French Revolution.

	15-05-2002 18:59									#110
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LOL....that's true, Spencer, and a good point.

And, the updates have been made!

Stuff added:

* Notation re: Archers and Cavalry attacking from forested tiles (gives them a negative modifier)

* Short section describing combat bonuses for the various flanking positions (left and right front, left and right rear, and rear attack) - Assumes a hexgrid battlemap.

So....did I leave anything out?

And....now would also be a good time to ask everybody to put on their thinking caps re: more special abilities for the Generals. I came up with one "generic" one and two class-specific ones, but if the interest is there, we could even take that further.

Thing is though....Candle'Bre's only got 60 provinces. Given how long it'd take for a starting unit to get to Elite Status, then participate in and win a sufficient number of battles to generate a War Captain, and THEN to survive enough battles to get promoted to General, it's my suspicion that it'll be a rare game indeed that we see more than a couple of Generals hitting the table in this fashion.

One thing though...for purposes of balance, I'm thinking that we'll need to do some tweaking with regards to The Furies and the Castillar family. Having the Furies start the game with two generals is....way overpowering, given the power of the units as defined here.

One thing I'm thinking of in this regard is simply downgrading the Great Leaders of those houses to War Captains. The other thing would be to make all of the starting forces you buy for yourself at the beginning of the game (turn zero) Elites. This would give everybody at least a chance, right from turn one, to snag a War Captain and start developing him.

-=Vel=-

	15-05-2002 19:36									#111
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Vel

You appear to be including a unit called “mercenary” in the game. What about the idea of using mercenaries as a completely separate group from your other civs i.e. something like the barbarians in CIV3. These guys would come fully equipped, depending on the type of company, and would include war-captains and or generals depending on the size of the mercenary company being hired.

This would increase the number of war-captains and generals that are available for play and would increase the chances of successful development of these units from the civ-based units.

	15-05-2002 19:38									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Hiya Stoo! Looks like I cross-posted with ya....didn't see your comment till this morning, but thank ya!

I am the king of CPS! If there is any possibility of getting a cross-post with somebody then I'll find a way to make it happen.

I bet your typing up a post right now, aren't you?

Perhaps it would be best for the 'free' units you purchase on Turn Zero to be Veterans rather then Elite/Champions. I understand what you're saying about wanting to give the player as much chance as possible for building up a War Captain from the start, but i'm thinking that if the soldiers are elite then it will make it too easy to conquer the Neutral provinces in the early game.

Maybe my crazy Fury-Cav rush would work if they were elite units? I'm not sure if that'd be a good thing (any crazy strat of mine shouldn't be possible ) ... but it could always be countered by increasing the defending forces of the neutral provinces. We don't want to get to the point where we're just buffing everyone's stats to make them balance though.

Yes ... you're right about Fury and Castillar being a bit too powerful if we give them a General at the start. Perhaps every faction should have one General though ... the leader of the faction. It would tie the action of the game into the story and it would allow us to keep the existing Generals (I really want Lady Ahnwick Castillar to be in it I'm having a blast writing stuff for her backstory at the moment).
Anyway ... we could make each faction start with their own leader as a General ... Mourngrym, Lady Ahnwick etc... Whatcha think?

I'll get the thinking cap on re: abilities for Generals.

EDIT: Well ... I managed to cross-post with SpencerH. Told you I would!

	15-05-2002 19:42									#113
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LOL...Spencer, you and I must be on the same wavelength today...I was taking a bit of a different approach, but it amounts to the same thing. Was thinking that we should consider a new provincial build...something like a Mercenary Guild....once built in a province, you could "go there" (click on it) to see if there were any mercenaries lurking about. These would include both individual units (War Captains and Generals), and also entire Mercenary Companies (which would almost certainly include at least a War Captain). We could use units of all types (archers, cav, pike, etc), cos once purchased, they would flip to your color anyway.....yeah...I'm likin' the notion....

-=Vel=-

	15-05-2002 19:48									#114
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You appear to be including a unit called “mercenary” in the game. What about the idea of using mercenaries as a completely separate group from your other civs i.e. something like the barbarians in CIV3. These guys would come fully equipped, depending on the type of company, and would include war-captains and or generals depending on the size of the mercenary company being hired.

I quite like this idea and I'd like to try and take it a little further and see where i end up .

This would make the prospect of one of your provinces with too high a population of Mercs defecting even more frightening. If the company of mercs have their own war-captains and generals then it would make it very hard to get the provinces back.

This could even create the possiblity for a sixth faction to independently appear at some point during the game. If the Ai was programmed so that various Merc-controlled provinces worked together to some degree then they might become a dangerous enemy to the player-controlled factions. Instead of just sitting there with their rebel army waiting for you to come and regain the province the rebel Mercs could have their own AI governor priorities and start to manage the provinces economy and population as if they were a sixth faction. I think that'd be pretty neat.

They'd never win the game, of course (although it'd be kinda funny if they did ), but it would make players more cautious about hiring too many Mercs. Thusly the Mercs would be very powerful, but expensive and you couldn't have too many of them or they'd revolt and start whooping your a$$.

	15-05-2002 19:50									#115
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* FrustratedPoet does the CPS dance.



Seeeeee-Peeeeeeee-Esssssssssss

* FrustratedPoet truly is the King of Cross-Posting.

	15-05-2002 19:51									#116
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One thoughton generals.

The idea of promotion through the ranks is fine. There should be a short cut tho'. A small wonder (war college)should be allowable that allows training of captains and generals.

West Point turned out most of the generals of the Civil war and with the exception of one short Mexican campaign (so short that generals wouldn't have been formed from via the method you've laid out) they were all a result of peace time training.

Jus my opinion

Og

Ohh and by the by what does one do with captured units?

Ransom them back, Execute them and shoot their heads over the walls to reduce morale, conscript them into your own forces, etc.

	15-05-2002 19:59									#117
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Stoo...LOL....yes I prolly WAS typing right when you typed that message! We did it again...

The problem I see us running into here is that by making WC's and Generals too commonplace, we run the risk of shortening the game dramatically.

So...if we DO have some type of Mercenary Guild, then we'll have to take care how it's implemented.

I know that I want Castillar to keep their General at game start, and I feel pretty confident in downshifting Fury's two Generals to WC's (perhaps with some starting experience, since they have them as a part of their factional advantage).

But that brings up the dilemma of what to do with the others?

Even turning everybody loose with one general would dramatically alter game balance, and would almost certainly necessitate rethinking the default province defenders.

Gonna have to chew on that one for a while....

-=Vel=-

	15-05-2002 20:06									#118
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Og! Great idea re: The War College! And that reminds me of yet another thread we oughta start...wonders....major and minor. Ramses and I discussed them in passing very early on, and decided they weren't something we needed for the free release, but...since it's come up again....

-=Vel=-

EDIT: d'oh! And I forgot to answer your question re: Captured units!

Honorable players ransom them....Infamous players behead them and get some coin for doing so....the Council of Seven has a special ability that allows them to press captured soldiers into their service.

So....all of the above?

	15-05-2002 21:25									#119
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Re-balancing idea

Here's an initial sketch of what the starting forces might look like, along with a rough estimation of the re-balanced Neutral prov. forces:

Starting forces:

Castillar: 1 General (Lady Ahnwick) (Promoted from the Ranks of Infantry)

Fury: 2 War Captains: Lord Stephen, Lord Michael (both WC’s were promoted from the ranks of Cavalry)

Wizards: 1 General (Bezzamarrabizzarra) (Promoted from the ranks of Archers)

Council of Seven: 1 General (Lord Keldarren The Silent, of MistHaven) (Promoted from the ranks of Infantry)

Mourngrym: 1 General (Lord Edwin Mourngrym) (Promoted from the ranks of Mercenaries)

In light of these additions, the defending forces for neutral provinces will now be calculated thusly:

Economic Value/10 = Number of Infantry guarding the province
Economic Value/10 = Number of Archers guarding the province
# of Infantry * 0.5 = Number of Mercenaries (round up) guarding the province

So…your pretty standard 30-40g province will now be occupied by 3-4 Infantry, a like number of Archers, plus two Mercenaries (the computer will be set to automatically pay the maximum bounty for the neutral Mercs). That should add some sting to it.


-=Vel=-

* Velociryx smiles wickedly and turns his full attention to dreaming up new Wonders and stuffages....

Last edited by Velociryx on 15-05-2002 at 22:34

	15-05-2002 21:51									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx In light of these additions, the defending forces for neutral provinces will now be calculated thusly: Economic Value/10 = Number of Infantry guarding the province Economic Value/10 = Number of Mercenaries guarding the province # of Infantry * 0.5 = Number of Archers (round up) guarding the province So…your pretty standard 30-40g province will now be occupied by 3-4 Infantry, a like number of Mercenaries (the computer will be set to automatically pay the maximum bounty for the neutral Mercs), plus 2 Archers. That should add some sting to it.

Wouldn't a better balance include:

a population and economic value for infantry and archers

and economic value /20 for mercs?