15-05-2002 21:59									#121
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Economic Value/10 = Number of Infantry guarding the province Economic Value/10 = Number of Mercenaries guarding the province # of Infantry * 0.5 = Number of Archers (round up) guarding the province

That sounds cool Vel, but it would seem to make more sense if the numbers of Mercs and Archers to be reversed:

40g Province: 4 Infantry / 4 Archers / 2 Mercs.

I'm not sure why I think this would be better, but I suppose it is because (at least to me) Archers seem more like 'normal' units than Mercs. They're the regular units of the army, unlike the specialist 'hired guns' of the Mercs. It seems logical that a small and independent Neutral province would have more of the 'normal' troops.

	15-05-2002 22:33									#122
	Support Apolyton

Looks like you two are in agreement on it....'k...will change it that way then....we got lossa time to run mock battles and see if that's overpowering or no...shouldn't be...those Generals are scary customers (and the WC's are no slouches either!)

-=Vel=-
(heading off to make the change now!)

	17-05-2002 09:27									#123
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx UR - The only thing I have a problem with your methodology is that by doing so, rather than rewarding good game play, we'd be rewarding failure. We might wind up setting up a situation where it would become MUCH more attractive to retreat after a round of combat (technical loss) than actually hang in there and try to win. -=Vel=-

That's easy to deal with. First of all, you can stipulate that a unit that actually saw combat, i.e., one that has inflicted or received actual damage (or both) from enemy units is eligible for experience. Secondly, units that retreat in cowardice have an actual chance of losing experience. A quick definition of cowardice is retreating even when the stack has a fair chance (50%) of winning an engagement.

I proposed my modifications because that present an interesting dilemma for a player: should they concentrate their forces to win and gain less experience, or shall they lose a few units here and their to have other units gaining experience more quickly?

	17-05-2002 10:08									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Just some quick thoughts regarding version 2.5 of the Tactical Combat Resolution System:

- It seems to be silly that Archers and Cavalries must attack Pikemen units. What do you think of the idea of making them "sponges?" Make them have high armour rating, high hit points, good morale, the ability to stand their ground, and moderate speed. The idea is to place them at choke points.

- Can Archers fire over the head of friendly units immediately in front of them?

- Misfires: when an Archer unit shoots at somebody it should be possible for it to hit somebody along the way (if there is any). If it misses there is a chance of it hitting some other unit instead.

- There isn't a whole lot of differences between various generals. It seems that perhaps Ranger should have higher movement but less armour. Knight should have high movement and high armour, but suffers a lot when moving through bad terrain, etc.

- I suggest that Rangers can only come from the ranks of Skirmishers, not Archers.

- Should Skirmishers have the ability to blend in with bad terrain (forest etc) so they become invisible? If an enemy stack enters a hex containing one or more invisible Skirmishers, they suffer an Ambush. An ambush is a free attack that is made at twice the attack strength of the skirmisher unit(s) ambushing, and it ignores armour rating. After damages have been applied, normal combat ensues. A Ranger stacked with a stack detects invisible enemy skirmishers. A Ranger stacks with invisible skirmishers negates this ability.

- Morale: whenever a unit takes damage it makes a morale check. If it fails, it becomes Broken. A broken unit cannot attack but can defend at full value. When a broken unit fails a morale check, it becomes Routed. It tries to flee the battlefield along the shortest path unless it is stacked with a Captain or a General, in which case it will seek the closest cover (fortifications, etc.). Captains and Generals may attempt to rally broken or routed units. To do so add 1/2 of the rallying leader's morale to the morale of the unit being rallied and make a morale check against that. If it is successful, the rally is successful, the unit being rallied immediately improve their morale statue by one step (routed to broken, broken to normal). A rallying leader cannot attack on that turn.

- Are there various levels of heights?

- Are there cliff sides?

	18-05-2002 17:50									#125
	Put an end to popups!

Added in some of the tweaks, changes, and latest sugesstions for the combat system, and updated the version number accordingly. Highilghts of the changes include:

* The Wall Special ability doesn't really fly with the tactical system...works okay on the strategic system cos it's a good way to approximate the use of pike, but tactially, its a wash - removed, and pikemen altered slightly.

* Slight tweak to Mercs, which are now slightly superior to infantry on the opener.

* Added in the "Hide/Ambush" special for skirmishers - God but they're gonna be terrifying in the late game!

* Added in "Disrupted" as a unit's state of being between ready to rock and routed.

Still chewing over possible ways to differentiate between the various types of Generals, but no changes made there in that regard. Also chewing over the notion of adding one additional special skill to choose from for the various types....balancing them now...not sure, but should have something else to put there soonish....

-=Vel=-

PS to UR: No cliffs per se, at least none that are noteworthy, and as to elevations....don't know...probably will do something like an elevation "step 50" or so (each level of elevation is considered to be fifty or so feet higher than the one before it).

	18-05-2002 22:24									#126
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Vel

Some points to consider with respect to potential differences between generals. There are really two traits, the ability to plan a battle and the ability to lead troops in battle. Within those two traits you could define sub-abilities:

ie
effect on combat (ferocity, esprit de corps)
effective movement (ability to understand and carryout movement orders)
initial placement (ability to organize and situate units effectively)
defense vs offense abilities

You've probably thought of this, but at some point you might want to organize a "meeting of the minds" in the new chat room since its barely used.

	18-05-2002 22:29									#127
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

While a chat would probably be productive, a huge advantage of the board itself is that others can follow your musings after the fact. A chat is, well, gone, when it's over.

	18-05-2002 22:52									#128
	Increase Your PM Length

I was just thinking that it would be fun to "talk" with a group who are interested in this project all at the same time. I think a prepared agenda with questions or problems that we could think about prior to the event would help to keep the arguments down to a dull roar.

There must be a way to record the chat ?

	18-05-2002 23:00									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You'll have to ask MarkG. But the chat is so new I doubt it.

It sure would be fun though.

	19-05-2002 00:11									#130
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You've probably thought of this, but at some point you might want to organize a "meeting of the minds" in the new chat room since its barely used.

Actually he hadn't thought of it ... but I did.

Great minds obviously think alike SpencerH ... the same thought occured to me a while back.

I sent Vel a PM about it a couple of days ago ... he liked the idea of such a Chat and said he'd look into organising one.

It would be nice to have it in the Chat Room here at 'poly ... if Markos doesn't mind. We do have our own IRC channel set up for chat sessions, though, so there is an easy place to hold it if 'poly is not available.

I don't know if the chat could be logged in the Apolyton room, but it's easy to do with IRC so I don't see that being a problem.

The chat might cover some of the same ground that has been covered in the forums, although it doesn't have to. However, our experience with team chats in the past is that we can advance our discussions and planning as much in a 2-3 hour chat as we can in 3-4 days on the forums. For an amateur group of people who can't be online all the time to pass forum posts back and forth very fast a chat is the best way to cover ground. As long as a log is kept (or somebody makes notes ) then it's great. A public chat should work along similar lines.

	19-05-2002 00:27									#131
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well hopefully Markos wont mind. I haven't seen more than a few people in the chat room at a time and mostly its empty. I only found it by accident- one click in the "wrong spot"- next thing you know I'm there.

I was thinking that the chat just kind of scrolls down the page, in essence recording everything. Shouldnt it be possible to copy and paste to any text program?

	19-05-2002 00:50									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yes it should be possible to copy and paste ... however, if the chat window has a limited amount of space then older parts of the discussion might be overwritten over the course of time.

I don't know how the Apolyton one works, though, since I've never used it.

	19-05-2002 01:20									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

of course you can use the chat at any time. as for the log, the setting is currently for the database to hold messages from the last 96 hours and you can call up as many of the messages as you like with the /save command (typing "/save 500" will open a new window with an html file of the last 500 messages)

	19-05-2002 01:21									#134
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

if you arrange a public chat be sure to send me or dan a note so that we can put it in the news

	19-05-2002 01:27									#135
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks for that info Markos!

It's good to know that we'll be able to log the chat in the Apolyton chat room. Having the support of such a large and welcoming website as this can only be good for the project.



96 hours of chat saved?? that should be long enough, but if Vel really gets into his stride then we might run into difficulties.

	19-05-2002 02:47									#136
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's great. Why don't you guys organise a big fat sit-in then? All the DLs this site can provide raving about their darling feature left out from Civ.

Ought to be better than crack!

	19-05-2002 04:33									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I dont understand your position, earlier you seemed supportive, or is it the advertising idea from Markos?

	19-05-2002 06:55									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think that was support - although it is a little hard to tell.

	19-05-2002 17:05									#139
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I dont understand your position, earlier you seemed supportive, or is it the advertising idea from Markos?

Oh, don't get me wrong - if it's loggable, it's a good idea. But I hung out in the chat yesterday and actually tried to log it and there turned out to be a quirk or two with the logs Markos could confirm but couldn't provide a solution for. Still, that's probably fixable.

Now, inviting each and every OT flamer to chip in with their hearts desire for "Vel's new Civ clone" seems to me as if it would be a, hm, mind-expanding experience, but certainly not a productive one. Any advertizing should be in this group only, where people with an actual interest in this game hang out. Not that it matters - the masses will find their way there as so as they see Vel's in.

	19-05-2002 17:14									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah ... you could be right there Moomin, I see your point. It would be a shame if the chat were hijacked by griefers and trolls, but hopefully that won't happen. Although, as you say, when they see that there are 10-20 people in the chat they may start circling like sharks.

Speaking of hijackings ... this thread is supposed to be about Combat, isn't it?

oops.

	19-05-2002 18:35									#141
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Vel,

Quick question. Will there be both tactical and strategic combat options?

	20-05-2002 01:31									#142
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well now! Since Markos has given us the nod to use the 'poly chat room, that's one item I can cross off my list! Gotta check some travel schedules, work schedules and such, then I'll start a new thread advertising the chat....should be fun, trolls or no....

And UR....yep! The eventual aim will be to present the player with three options where combat is concerned: AutoCalc, Strategic Level, or Tactical.

-=Vel=-

	20-05-2002 01:48									#143
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And UR....yep! The eventual aim will be to present the player with three options where combat is concerned: AutoCalc, Strategic Level, or Tactical.

So what's the difference between AutoCalc and Strat Level?

	20-05-2002 01:59									#144
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

AutoCalc is just that. Push the button, it tells you if you've won or lost, based on troop strengths, weighted by a certain amount for the presence of WC's and Gen's.

Strategic Combat is per the "Retro Approach" posted a page or two back, and Tactical is...that wampum big post I made above....

-=Vel=-

	20-05-2002 12:28									#145
	Increase Your PM Length

AutoCalc... now who gets to decide, the attacker or the defender?

There is an interesting point that is related to this. Since the computer players won't be able to exploit terrain features as good as veteran players, they should always opt for automatic resolution

	20-05-2002 16:53									#146
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think there will be a lot fewer complaints if the human player gets to decide type of battle when meeting the AI.

	20-05-2002 18:06									#147
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I know its kind of off-topic, but nobodys commented on the peacetime leader idea (previous page) . I've been thinking about it though, especially for the church, and it still sticks with me as an interesting idea. Random generation (perhaps dependent on the civ type) of a single priest ("apostle")who "spreads the word of god" rather than, if you have the tech you can build temples, etc. The church could have completely different attributes depending on the characteristics of that initial "apostle".

	20-05-2002 19:51									#148
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good thought UR, but I think Trooper is right 'bout the fewer complaints if the human player gets to pick how the combat is handled.

Spencer! Dang man, I'm sorry...In my head, I really thought I'd commented on the idea for peacetime leaders, cos I liked it very much when I read it! It's soooo important in my mind to balance the playing styles...what, we've got all these War Captains and Generals milling around the map terrorizing everybody...there's a definate NEED to have some kind of peace time equivalent...'specially if the peacetime leader can be assigned to a specific province for X turns, and the end result is a free (or much cheaper) facility....that's huge!

-=Vel=-

	20-05-2002 22:28									#149
	Remove this text

Peacetime leaders: Yes! Absolutely. One of the most irritatating aspects of Civ3 is that on the the higher difficulty levels, a great leader is about the only way to build wonders. And the only way to get them, it too fight like crazy all the time. That system cries out for great artists, or somesuch, for builders.

I happen to think Civ3 great leaders are rediculously overpowered anyway, but there needs to be a playing-style balance in CB too. Priests and Cardinals, perhaps?

	20-05-2002 23:41									#150
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I like it...and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't use the Clergy (we'll wanna change their titles to something that blends better with our polytheistic society, but that's a minor deal)....but yes, with the existance of Intercessions in the game...I think the priesthood would make a fantastic choice for peace-oriented leaders.

Their level gains could give them more peacetime options (even cheaper builds or perhaps even the ability to invoke an intercession just by being in a given province--which would, in turn, increase everyone's interest in Espionage, 'specially in assassination!

-=Vel=-