23-04-2001 11:17									#1
	A big CHUNKY manuel Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Remember the big FAT manuel from Civ1? It was like a bible with a history lesson (basically), and all the necessary info about the game, (and unnecessary info - like info on how leaders were really like as well as their temperament in the game)
There has been a disturbing trend lately to size down manuels, and move most of it onto electronic format, but this should be avoided in civ3.
I want to see an all new and improved big FAT manuel. In fact I wouldn't mind if it was even CHUNKIER!!!

	23-04-2001 14:50									#2
	Tired of ads?

Paper manuals are two edged swords. SMAC had decent size manual... only rushed out so quickly to come without an index and full of wrong info (game rules and values changed in last weeks game balancing) and quickly out of date, after the game patches adds commands and features.

A well balanced learning curve, a training small scenario, an enhanced Civilopedia (easy to upgrade to keep as for patches and mods/fan's scenarios): we needs more in electronic format.

I'll love the ability to add players notes to Civilopedia, to include any good suggestion and memo I planned and developed, or any wise strategy I learn from Apolytoner Game Masters.

Think about a Civilopedia that let you link something like Velocyrix's SMAC Strategy Guide, with reminders and trigger events!
E.g., you discover a new tech and Civilopedia pop-up the relevant suggestion of Vel or your Civ reach some power value relations to the others players and, as your Advisor try to suggest you standard Firaxis wise, it add (or replace with it) more deep notes you wrote/imported related to your usual style of play.

I had the SMAC Tech poster, but its flat paper limit can't help me to drill my way to wanted advance. I'll love a tool to better navigate and search on Civ III tech tree.

I remember a Intel Computer Show two years ago where they showed us an interesting interface concept, able to reproduce arguments and their relations, as a spinning globe (mainly made of exhagons) where every time you focused to an argument all the surrounding polygons where sorted for relations and relevance (the nearest are strictly related, others fade far).

Of course paper manuals helps a bit to fight sw piracy, as added bonus to customers, but we can have others tricks do the same: a brief proper history paperback (I'll love that, it'll help me to explain my purchase of CIV III to my wife ) , a bunch of small unit figurine (plastic or metal) to collect...

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

	23-04-2001 16:00									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Big manuals are EXPENSIVE to produce.
Especially when compared to the production cost of a CD.
So, don't expect a big paper manual.

	23-04-2001 17:58									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Manuel who? Not the one from Barcelona, I hope?

Seriously.. who needs manuals?

Fred

	23-04-2001 18:23									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Civ1 and Civ2 and AC all had good manuals. Personally, I will take the manual and read it in bed, often before I install the game. before a week is out I've always read it from cover to cover.

Please, Please, PLEASE! a bound manual! the PDF files are OK for CDs I get used, but A new game should have a real one. That's why I paid 5$ more for a boxed used version of AC instead of the CD Rom Classic new.

'Nuff Said

	24-04-2001 03:06									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I for one like electronic manuals. What concerns me, though, is that I want to be able to find out all the relationships between variables. This would be extremely helpful for making scenarios. As I said in one of my previous threads: "Firaxis, pleese provide thorough documentation of all the relationships between variables in the game." I don't care whether they are provided on paper in the manual, or electronically on the CD, or even dowloadable from the Firaxis website, as long as the documentation is somwhere!!!

	24-04-2001 04:52									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i want a big fat manual, i dont care if it is in .pdf or from the forest (i.e. paperback). if it comes down to a large .pdf or a so-so paper book, i want teh .pdf. i just dont want to feel jipped after paying ~$40 for a game, only to have to go BACK to teh store and buy a ~20 "Strategy Guide"/manual seperate from the game (e.g. like ctp), just to understand what a few undocumented things are supposed to do, and how to use them properly. that is just BS if it turns out that i feel like i dont understand the game features...after reading the manual.

info on little details helps both beginners and advanced players excel. and if the beginner cant get past those lower, easy levels, it hinders the "one more game" feeling. the first sections should be basics for teh beginners with history or whatever, and teh later sections should be detailed about the complete function/role of everything else in the game.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited April 23, 2001).]

	24-04-2001 06:32									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I want a big manual with lots of pictures, graphs and everything in it. It should explain every facet of the game into detail and even include some historical facts.

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Its okay to smile; you're in America now

	24-04-2001 06:48									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Anything even resembling AC's manual would be great, I found it quite useful.

	24-04-2001 09:42									#12
	Got spare money?

I want a paper-bound manual because it's too cumbersome to drag the computer into the bathroom . . .

	24-04-2001 10:47									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'll add my vocie to the chorus, as sad as it is, after I had just gotten the game (or was picking it off the shelf after a few months, I read the SMAC/CivII manuals in bed too, even if I'd already been playing the game for months, just hoping to find some new nugget of info to play better in my next game.

	24-04-2001 17:21									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I just had time to read the title of this thread but I can say this:

I WANT A BIG CHUNKY MANUAL FOR CIV III with everything included

	24-04-2001 22:52									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Manual primer 101:

1) don't forget the index

2) don't forget the table of contents

3) don't forget to explain everything in the game

4) don't forget to make it BIG and THICK and READABLE...

Geesh, you'd think I wouldn't have to say this, but game companies STILL put out thin manuals WITHOUT indexes

BTW, I enjoy my computer so much, I wish I could bring it into the bathroom - it's just that the electricity/water thingy tends to intrude upon the experience... still...

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Go tell the Spartans, passerby:
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.
[This message has been edited by Leonidas (edited April 24, 2001).]

	25-04-2001 02:05									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hah! Good luck. The new standardised packaging (a DVD package with twice the depth) hardly allows any manual at all, let alone a bound or Civ1 sized one. If you're lucky, you might get one half the size of Civ2. No, you will get a rudimentary manual printed in really small, unreadable type, and an ad to buy the official stategy guide for another $4.99...

	25-04-2001 15:26									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What standardised packaging?

I want a large printed manual that explains everything. I don't want to shell out more $$$ just to master the game, or at least win on the most difficult level.

They could have everything else - e.g. info for scenario makers - in electronic form.

	25-04-2001 16:34									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I love the big chunky manuals of civ1 & 2! I like the idea of reading it on the toilet, in bed etc. Besides; it's good to have it around and read it while playing the game. My eyes gets tired by reading too much on my screen! I don't think that the "standardized package" will be used for civ3, or any strategy game that needs a big manual. We can only hope.

	25-04-2001 20:50									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Won't fly.

	26-04-2001 09:10									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The manual shouldn't be bigger then the bookshelf above the pillowend of my bed. I would like it if I'd be woken up and being (s)mashed by my civ-manual falling down from it.

I've actually never used the civ-II manual because, when I bought civ-II, I bought, with a special offer price, the gold-version with an extra CD with scenario's and !!!!! the CIV-strategybook. I've always used that one.

A good civilopedia would do for me. Not like it's being done in CTP.

	27-04-2001 09:20									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I haven't seen any games packaged that way around here. Any big hits (e.g. Europa Universalis, Black&White) packed like that in your area?

The reasons I think it won't fly are:

1. Customers hate it.
2. Publishers hate it.

You can't pack games in a double depth DVD box. There's no room for posters, manuals, and other items.

	27-04-2001 02:51									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

The size of the Civ3 manual should be limited only by excessive expense and the amount of relevant material possible to put in it. In other words, let's have a manual that is as big as Firaxis needs it to be. A thin manual with no substance is as bad as a huge one with watered down, vacuous content just to make it bigger.

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- Cyclotron7, "that supplementary resource fanatic"

	27-04-2001 09:15									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

with the new size implimentation of the package, does that mean that my map is going to be folded even more times! grrrr!

	28-04-2001 04:11									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I once knew a fat Spanish waiter... now he really WAS a big chunky Manuel.

But seriously, in the U.K virtually all of our manuals are in DVD boxes, and I for one can't stand them or the boxes, too. Never again to get a manual bigger than the size of your hand and certainly no thicker than a CD (don't forget thats got to fit inside the box as well). As for posters, maps and other gimmicks, like 'em or not, they're out - unless a poster the size of a stamp is what you're after.

Another thing is that Jewel cases are out as a result of this, meaning that if you want to store your games you either have to buy your own or keep them in the bigger (than the Jewel) DVD box. Fallout Tactics CDs came in a little flappy plastic folder and kept falling out!!!

Either way, customers lose out to marketing and production costs. Grrr!



[This message has been edited by Old Beardy (edited April 27, 2001).]