03-05-2002 23:44									#1
	I smell a conspiracy Get a bigger avatar today!

I am a disgruntled Sid fan with rapidly falling faith.

When I rushed to the store in November to get my copy of CivIII, I wanted the works! I loved Civ, CivII, and SMAC, and I wanted everything the Limited Edition offered: the special "making of" video, the designer's notes, and the bonus scenario.

What's this? The video is just a Sid commerical? The designer's note is a scrap of paper? And worst of all, the bonus scenario isn't there?

In fact, no scenarios were. And neither was a functional editor -- no ability even to make my own scenarios! Not to mention that the multiplayer promised by February still isn't out!

But something came to my attention. A wonderful civ fan, undoubtably working in his spare time and without payment, hacked the editor to reveal add/delete buttons, giving players access to create new civs and units!

...yet after 3 patches, Firaxis still couldn't do that. Or chose not to.

And on Wednesday I heard about something new: an expansion pach that promises new civs, new scenarios, new multiplayer. All available to loyal civ players ... for a price.

I smell a conspiracy. I think that Firaxis has known for months that it wouldn't release multiplayer. Furthermore, I think they intentionally have not fixed the editor so that fans would not be able to undermine the profitable expansion pack.

Sid... I am losing faith.

-------------------------------------------------------
"Love of money is the root of all evil."

	04-05-2002 00:12									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You may very well have a valid point. I wouldn't doubt that there are hidden goodies within Civ3. Why let us know about them because you can always make more money with an XP.

Another example of greed........

	04-05-2002 00:14									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And you're probably right on the mark.

	04-05-2002 00:22									#4
	Got spare money?

Firaxis and Infogrames only owes consumers good customer service which, I believe, they are doing through patches. As a business, they should optimize every angle they have or can create. I would.

	04-05-2002 00:29									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by dojoboy Firaxis and Infogrames only owes consumers good customer service which, I believe, they are doing through patches. As a business, they should optimize every angle they have or can create. I would.

With Microsoft and there "optimization of every angle" I have no choice. (I hate mac) I'm forced to submit to Gates' greed.

With Firaxis I have a choice. Blatant greed is a big turnoff for me. I hate being taken advantage of. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice shame on me.

	04-05-2002 00:38									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich With Firaxis I have a choice. Blatant greed is a big turnoff for me. I hate being taken advantage of. Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice shame on me.

But admit it Dietrich, you will, in all likelyhood, still end up buying the expansion...you might not like it, but like all of us, you are still a civer at heart.

	04-05-2002 00:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Suppose Firaxis wasn't a video-game development house. Suppose it was a road contractor hired to build an interstate bridge. The deadline rolls around and, for whatever reason, they're not done building the bridge--but there is a solid, unbroken path from one end to the other on which a car could concievably drive (I have no idea exactly what steps such a bridge usually undergoes in construction, but just assume that there's a more-or-less driveable surface in place long before the bridge is in stable, finished condition). Would you think anything amiss if, rather than opening the bridge for traffic in its current state, they left all their construction barricades and detour signs up?

Firaxis didn't finish the editor on time. They had two options: They could release the editor "as is" and have to provide support for a buggy, incomplete product at the same time as they were working on it, or they could strip out the incomplete features and release only the portion of the editor which was stable and reasonable finished while they worked on getting the rest of it up to speed.

There's no conspiracy here. A conspiracy would've involved sending men in black after people developing third-party editing tools, NOT telling those people publically and straight up about changes to the file formats. They're no paragon of good development and PR practice, but a sinister evil cabal Firaxis isn't.

	04-05-2002 00:45									#8
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I smell a .... oh wait thats just me. Sorry I had to much Mexican food and cheap beer last night.

	04-05-2002 00:50									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok that's it. I've had it. I'm officially not buying any Firaxis/Infogrames product ever again. They are the most dodgy and shifty companies in gaming today. Their business practices are the highest order of highway robbery. I'd go as far as to call Civ3 the "Extreme Paintbrawl" of the genre.

I think they should PAY ME to take this game. I definately already paid for it once. No way should I take it in the ass twice.

And Moo3 is officially on probation in my book after this anouncement...

	04-05-2002 01:37									#10
	Sour Grapes Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Originally posted by DarthVeda [/SIZE]
Ok that's it. I've had it. I'm officially not buying any Firaxis/Infogrames product ever again. They are the most dodgy and shifty companies in gaming today. Their business practices are the highest order of highway robbery. I'd go as far as to call Civ3 the "Extreme Paintbrawl" of the genre.

I think they should PAY ME to take this game. I definately already paid for it once. No way should I take it in the ass twice.

And Moo3 is officially on probation in my book after this anouncement... [/QUOTE]

You are a whiner....come on man...open your wallet and help support our buddies at Firaxs.

Yeah..the game is not great..but those people need jobs...now get off your butt and buy the expansion pack. Just be thankful we have a Firaxis to spend your money on..otherwise you would be blowing it on more dope.

	04-05-2002 02:35									#11
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When you announce that your business is beginning work on a sequal to a product as popular on civilization, the massive amount of fans gather in excitement and cheer them on...Eventually after a few months of this they begin to start getting angry because they announced the new version but it's not out yet. After a year or 2 the fans begin casting doubt on the whole project itself.
The only way around this problem is to release the game earlier than anticipated because you people were cursing them and doubting their abilities. So if it's released early, then there are going to be many bugs, and even some things such as multiplay that were only partially completed.

I've been waiting for a sequal to MOO2 ever since I got it around 1998, I'm in no hurry for them to push it out though.

	04-05-2002 03:18									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Releasing multi-player as part of an expansion pack is a sham, especially when it was promised as a patch due in March. These new units and civs had better be backwards-compatible with civ3 itself and not just as part of these scenarios.

	04-05-2002 03:24									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK... let's get one thing straight. Firaxis, Infogrames, or anybody else didn't cheat you. They sold a product, and it's tough **** if you bought it and don't like it.

As for an XP, the same thing goes: If you don't want it, don't buy it. But Firaxis did not cheat you (you got what you paid for), and the only reason you say it's a "sham" is because you're too bitter about something not meeting your astronomical expectations of computer game perfection.

	04-05-2002 03:40									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh give me a break. Stop defending them. Sid is a Mountebank and a charlatan and you know it.

Civ3 is inferior to Call to Power 2, it just got better publicity.

	04-05-2002 05:08									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think it goes even farther than just that they wouldn't correct the problems after its release. I think they CREATED the problems before the release.


I think Sid's team might have even had a full scenario editor and multiplayer in it by September and then yanked it at Firaxis's request... or hopefully anyway (I don't wanna blame Sid for concocting this plan). I mean, when Civ3 was still on the drawing board, they KNEW we wanted multiplayer, they KNEW we wanted a scenario editor, and they KNEW we wanted plenty of civilizations... but they chose not to include these things? Bull!

They left them out on purpose, but they couldn't just release an expansion pack in December because A) they wouldn't have reached the peak of sales of the inferior Civ3, and B) if they brought out the pack then we all would have known for sure that they planned it that way because there's no way anybody could have made one that fast. I think the expansion pack has been sitting and waiting all ready to go on a self since October! They waited JUST long enough that people had not completely turned their backs on Civilization, but that they were thuroughly fed up with the inferior Civ3. And the patches kept the skeptics interested just long enough and pulled the loyal fans along by the nose. In effect, Firaxis is making us pay twice just to get Civilization 3 1.0.

Now... I personally find Civilization 3 satisfying. I like playing it, BUT I think its a far cry from what I had originally wanted.

I think we should revolt! Storm the Bastille! Depose the Kaiser! Kill the Tsar! Barricade the streets! Declare independence! Free the slaves! Civvers of the world unite!

	04-05-2002 05:10									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Dom Pedro II: So we should bite the hand that feeds us because there wasn't alot of meat on the last bone?

	04-05-2002 05:21									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Dom Pedro II: So we should bite the hand that feeds us because there wasn't alot of meat on the last bone?

Hehe! No, actually I was only being facetious. I mean, this little conspiracy theory is possible, but I don't find it likely, and I will most certainly be buying the expansion pack when it comes out provided that they truly mean what they said in the press release.

	04-05-2002 06:08									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I used to think that nobody in the gaming industry was as shifty as EA.

I was wrong...

Though I did enjoy Civ III, it still had the stench of capitalist greed looming over it. Many features promised just weren't implemented. And now, we have to pay for what we should've got with the original game.

And they'll probably hold off more of what we should've gotten so they can make us fork over more of our hard-earnt cash on another XP.

I say the conspiracy is real.

	04-05-2002 06:13									#19
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Looks like the word is getting around about Sid and Civ 3.

Civ 2 had legs for 5+ years; Civ 3 has no legs, not without a scenario builder which should have come with the game.

	04-05-2002 06:15									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Coracle Looks like the word is getting around about Sid and Civ 3. Civ 2 had legs for 5+ years; Civ 3 has no legs, not without a scenario builder which should have come with the game.

Why do you say that? A lot of games don't have scenario builders.

	04-05-2002 06:27									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Personally, I love civ3 - civ2 might have had better gameplay but the improved graphics, as well as the cool diplomacy model (albeit not as good as CTP2) make civ3 a cut above.

However, the very nature of Civilization and the online community built up over the last 10 yeas means that modding and scenario-building is more important than for other games: it's something we've come to expect. To be disappointed as we were (the units and resources were hard-coded until after 3 patches), with no multiplayer, no scenarios and an editor that actively discourages modding outside of tweaking the existing rules and we have every right to moan.

Call To Power 2 might not have been an official civ title, but it implemented a lot of Good Things, which should have been learned from for civ3. Civ3 is like 1 step foward, 2 steps behind. Why does the game only go up to modern-day techs? Why so few units? Why can't we select tone of voice in diplomacy?

So, ignoring the shoddy development and lack of playtesting (all those bugs), there is the question of motive. Well, it is almost certainly commercial and, whilst they're a business, Firaxis will simply be providing us with the game we wanted in the first place. Hopefully. As I say, the new units/civs/whatever had better be usable outside the scenarios or I'm gonna be really pissed off.

	04-05-2002 06:37									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

A lot of games aren't Civ3. When a game has this much publicity (it is the first game I have ever seen that was advertised on T.V.) It's makers should go the extra mile to make it good.

I don't like it, but i will buy the expansion because I would rather pay 80$-100$ for something than 50$ for almost nothing....

	04-05-2002 07:29									#23
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it's funny how we'll end up shelling out $80-$90 for what was promised upon release +8 useless civs.

	04-05-2002 09:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Oh give me a break. Stop defending them. Sid is a Mountebank and a charlatan and you know it.

Give me a break. You have nothing but bitter conspiracy theories. OK, so how is Sid a charlatan? I won't defend them against logic, but this is just the height of senselessness.

quote: Civ3 is inferior to Call to Power 2, it just got better publicity.

So, when was it that I said Civ3 was even good? I think it's funny how you seem to extrapolate hidden meanings from my post.

I'm not defending the game, just pointing out that there's no conspiracy: Firaxis put a game out for sale, and you bought it. Firaxis will put an XP out for sale, and you may or may not buy it. What's so shifty about that?

	04-05-2002 09:49									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Why do I own 2 copies of Civilization II?

The first one is just labled as Civilization II

The second is labled Civilization II Gold.

What did I get with the second that I did not get with the first?

	04-05-2002 09:59									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Cyclo

	04-05-2002 12:19									#27
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I think it was Sid on the grassy knoll.

Or perhaps it was the Cubans. They put the kibosh on the initial MP/scenario release. (something about perfecting a scenario where they could successfully take over the US-seems they were having problems designing it to where they could win)

Perhaps it was Cancer Man-he seems to be lurking behind everything, perhaps he is behind this?

US Military? What if they are planing on invading iraq in 3 months, WHEN THE XP WILL ARRIVE. We will be too busy playing MP to notice while the tanks roll through baghdad and then to Tehran and every other axis of evil nation. We won't care if thousands of soldiers die, as we are killing millions in a game, and can't be bothered.

	04-05-2002 13:52									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Conspiracy? Heh.

Maybe it's just a game.

	04-05-2002 14:49									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Civ3 is inferior to Call to Power 2, it just got better publicity.

Smoking the weed again?

	04-05-2002 17:53									#30
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I like Civ3, thats why I'll still play it. I won't buy the expansion though. I'd never forgive myself if I did. They could have at least released the scenario editor(completed) if nothing else for the original Civ3 thats a main thing not a "special feature"...at least it should't be.