04-05-2002 00:15									#1
	Option: blgd prereq for certain units? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Do you want an option to have certain buildings as prerequisites for certain units?

Certain buildings are already prerequisites for others. This seems simple enough to add to unit production.

My main reason for this request is to have certain bldgs/wonders required for UUs. The bldgs/wonders would also have the "replacement" flag checked so only 1 could be in existence at any time. This way, UUs are more 'organic' and you would be more flexible. Instead of being coded from the start of the game, you could look around at your situation and decide which UU, if any, would be most useful. It would be based on whether you want to invest in the wonder to produce these UUs and since each UU wonder replaces the others, you could only have 1 at a time. The high cost would prevent simple switching back and forth.

Ex. You are on an island, so you build Naval Academy. It allows super caravels that go farther and are tougher. Suddenly, an enemy lands with some fast riders. You build the Nomadic Spirit so you can have your own fast riders to counter, or the Mercenary Camp to build super-pikemen, but you lose the Naval Academy. Existing super caravels stay but you can no longer build them. A leader could rush a critical wonder you need so you can get the UU you need.

Other reasons why it's useful? Not useful?

	04-05-2002 00:34									#2
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Interesting idea. Sounds very Shogun: Total Warish. In that game the building prerequisite for certain units worked well. It might work in Civ3 too.

Any other opinions out there?

	04-05-2002 03:36									#3
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I remember building prequisties from MoM.

It would be nice to need Factory for Tanks, Airport for Bombers, Harbor for some ships, etc...

	04-05-2002 03:49									#4
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I just went through a game where I had none of the following:
Saltpeter
Aluminum
Oil


The best unit I could build was Marines without trade.

I got saltpeter and aluminum but not oil.

I don't think MORE neccesary things to build a unit is a good idea.

P.S. I did win by building the Spaceship.

	04-05-2002 04:03									#5
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Resourses should be more common. And the idea is good. It would prevent the building of a size one city from which to rush buy weapons.

	04-05-2002 07:00									#6
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Not a lot of responses so far! But I'm a bit surprised people would say no to another option (for the editor of course!), instead of picking the 3rd choice.

airport idea is good. constructing aircraft requires a lot of infrastructure. makes sense to me. also, think of the strategy you could employ. if you bomb someone else's airports or factories, you could prevent new aircraft or tanks from being produced, just like IRL. This would make builders more powerful and the protection of buildings more important (again an option, warmongerers who just want to steamroll enemies without challenge can turn it off or set to no prerequisites).

remember that this is probably already possible with minor coding changes (bldgs already have prereqs, and some units have prereqs - ex. ships need water tiles!).

unfortunately, I don't know how to hack things, so I will have to wait and hope someone else does, unless firaxis does (but given that they hid the Add/Delete buttons, I don't think they will).

who knows how to mess with this? gramphos? jimmyh? anyone?

	04-05-2002 07:05									#7
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I just went through a game where I had none of the following: Saltpeter Aluminum Oil The best unit I could build was Marines without trade. I got saltpeter and aluminum but not oil. I don't think MORE neccesary things to build a unit is a good idea. P.S. I did win by building the Spaceship.

Just certain units. You could always turn off some prereqs too. I have no requirements for infantry in my mod (why would there be?). But I definitely do for mechanized units though, that makes lots of sense.

Besides, isn't the scarcity of resources the point? that's what makes it a challenge. challenge is for me. mindless conquest over the AI might be refreshing every so often, but in those cases, I switch to chieftain since it isn't about accomplishment, just fun. both are valid, but Tuberski, you're probably more proud of that spaceship win (because your skill overcame hardship), than of some game where you left the AI in the dust, right?

	04-05-2002 10:15									#8
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I'm against, but not because it would be too confusing for the player. Rather, because it would be too confusing for the AI : it would have to balance carefully its overall situation, it would have to think if the UU-wonder is worth it etc.
Another problem is the very fact your UUs wont be UUs anymore : everybody which builds the UU-wonder will be able to produce them. At the end of the game, I'd bet everybody will have the unique modern armor.
Plus, it would be possible to have several UUs per game, which loses the importance of choosing your Civ according to the arrival of its UU in time (I never play an ancient Civ because I love a golden age in the medieval era)
Lastly, it would be against the historical feeling of the game... I'm not fond of seeing my Zulu Samurai attacking Indian Jaguar warriors. True, some people might feel this is precisely what "rewriting history" is about, so this reason is not the most important

If there was some flexibility in the UU, I'd rather say it should be oriented by your resources, your military production etc (for example, you could specialize in bronze swordsmen )... Something much more flexible than simply building a wonder. But I suppose we won't see this before Civ5

	04-05-2002 19:13									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm against, but not because it would be too confusing for the player. Rather, because it would be too confusing for the AI : it would have to balance carefully its overall situation, it would have to think if the UU-wonder is worth it etc. Another problem is the very fact your UUs wont be UUs anymore : everybody which builds the UU-wonder will be able to produce them. At the end of the game, I'd bet everybody will have the unique modern armor. Plus, it would be possible to have several UUs per game, which loses the importance of choosing your Civ according to the arrival of its UU in time (I never play an ancient Civ because I love a golden age in the medieval era)

Good point! My quick response is that if you make it a GREAT Wonder, only 1 CIV can build it, right? So only the person who goes for "Military Industrial Mega-Complex" gets the Modern Armour UU.
Also, this would only be a problem (everyone goes for same UU) if there was clearly a single advantage over every other UU. I suspect this is mainly a problem with the culminating UUs, so earlier UU wonders could still be small wonders. Further, not everyone might go for modern armour UU (ex. many complain that the F-15 comes too late in the game to play a decisive role), if modern armour is late game and the benefits perhaps not worth the construction cost of the wonder.
(Besides, there's already the same funneling in existence, all modern civ 3 ground forces are composed of mech inf and mod arm - which is why I've modded it so there's increased benefits for diversity. )

A final solution would be to make the U.N. wonder have the SAME replacement flag that the UU wonders did. Thus, if you want to win diplomatically, you must sacrifice the UU wonders. If the U.N. wonder is too easy to give up, then make it some other wonder that will be beneficial to those who choose not to have a late game UU.

quote: Lastly, it would be against the historical feeling of the game... I'm not fond of seeing my Zulu Samurai attacking Indian Jaguar warriors. True, some people might feel this is precisely what "rewriting history" is about, so this reason is not the most important

Rewriting history is what it's all about for me. Heck, otherwise, the Aztecs should vaporize in the industrial age, and the Americans should suddenly pop into existence then. More historical, but not necessarily more fun.

quote: If there was some flexibility in the UU, I'd rather say it should be oriented by your resources, your military production etc (for example, you could specialize in bronze swordsmen )... Something much more flexible than simply building a wonder. But I suppose we won't see this before Civ5

sure, of course, but I'm just looking for a "quick fix" using a bldg workaround (b/c I think it's feasible for a hacker to do) and this is better than nothing in my opinion.

	04-05-2002 22:32									#10
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One thing you CAN do no is create a unit that requires both an advance and a resource. Make that resource a rare one, and you now have a 'hard to get' unit. You can do this with up to 3 resources, allowing you to build super-rare (and super powerful) units. Not the same as buildings, I know, but still allows for more variety....

	04-05-2002 23:29									#11
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Tuberski,

How did you won by Space Ship without ALUMINIUM?

	04-05-2002 23:44									#12
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He obviously got aluminium by trade.