04-05-2002 02:28									#1
	Managing cities: the order Full PM-box? Change here!

This is the order how the cities are managed. Please correct if it is wrong.

A. cities are processed (the last city goes first):

1. increase/decrease population

city growth ...the computer chooses the new square to work (the food first)
else(!)
famine ...if city size is decreased (no Settler) then the computer chooses all squares to work
famine come up only if the food box was completely empty (you can rotate turns with 1 surplus and 100 shortage) and there is no city growth in the moment

2a. shields added to the production and the production is finished eventually (if settler is built then the city size is decreased and the computer chooses all squares to work)

2b. unit support: checked if shield production is higher than number of units supported

3a. riot flag is set

3b. WLTxD is checked (if population is increased then the computer chooses the new square to work)

4a. taxes added

4b. upkeep of improvements

5. beakers added to the research; the new tech eventually (if that tech is a "government" tech then player can set the revolution flag, i.e. set the government to anarchy)

B. government change

if Oedo year and revolution flag then new government

Last edited by SlowThinker on 04-05-2002 at 19:37

	04-05-2002 10:01									#2
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It's worth noting that a city with a full food box will add a citizen even if there is no extra food. I don't know how many boxes of food I wasted before I realized that it was too late to rush-buy an aqueduct on the turn when the box was already full, and that even cutting the extra food to zero wouldn't prevent that loss. City tries to grow, fails, but food is gone.

Note also that it's different with WLT_D; city improvements such as aqueduct or marketplace get built before the WLT_D check, so (1) a size-8 city will get to grow if you completed the aqueduct, and (2) a city that celebrated itself into a new red-faced citizen in step 1 can continue to celebrate because a temple or marketplace takes care of it before the check.

Also note that you can only complete the "instantaneous" government change if this is the city processing phase at the beginning of the Oedo year, not at the end of it. And you can't trust the date that 2.42 shows you.

I can't verify the exact order of all of these steps. For example, I don't know how you'd tell what order the taxes, the science, and the WLT_D check come in. But I can't identify any error in your description.

Great Library?

	04-05-2002 19:32									#3
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quote: Originally posted by debeest For example, I don't know how you'd tell what order the taxes, the science, and the WLT_D check come in.

To verify I run a test: all events in one city, and messages went in that order.

quote: It's worth noting that a city with a full food box will add a citizen even if there is no extra food.

Yes. If the shield box is full, then you have the product prepared immediately. But if the food box is full, then you have to wait one turn, the effect is delayed.

quote: and that even cutting the extra food to zero wouldn't prevent that loss.

Not only zero, you can be in hunger, for example -100, and you lose nothing. (point A1)

quote: Also note that you can only complete the "instantaneous" government change if this is the city processing phase at the beginning of the Oedo year, not at the end of it.

I don't understand...You want to say that if the last city (city nr 1) completes the tech then the Oedo wan't work?

quote: Great Library?

Out of order now. Librarians lost keys

	05-05-2002 02:01									#4
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ST -- sorry if I was confusing. Let me try to be clearer. The player's experience of the game, beginning with the first turn, is that FIRST comes the player's turn, in which the player moves, and then at the END of the player's turn, there's a computer-driven period during which all the AI civs and barbs move, and then you come to the city-processing phase. To me, the "feel" of the game is that that interim period is part of the year-turn that it follows, but the reality of the game is that it's part of the turn to come. So if you play out an Oedo year turn, and then during the interim phase you get the new government tech, it's too late to take advantage of it during that Oedo year; you need to wait three turns and revolt during the turn before the next Oedo year. You only have the "instant revolution" option if you get the government tech during the interim phase BEFORE the Oedo year.

	05-05-2002 03:30									#5
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quote: Originally posted by debeest ST -- sorry if I was confusing. Let me try to be clearer

I have a suspicion the problem is on my side, but I know you like to be polite and so I will let you to claim that you were unclear and confusing.

I understand you wanted to say that in the turn the phase (1) where food, shields are added etc. (and the change of government is checked) precede the phase (2) where player moves with units and set production in cities.
Understood, explained.

But I am confused again:
I though that the human player has equal status as the AI players, i.e. the order of the turn is
white phase (1), white phase (2), green phase (1), green phase (2), dark blue phase (1), dark blue phase (2) ...

Do you want to say the order is
human phase (1), AIs phase (1) and (2), human phase (2) ?

	05-05-2002 04:57									#6
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No, I quite agree with you. But the player sees little of what the AI civs are doing, and none of the city processing, so it FEELS (to me at least) as if there are just a player-movement phase and an everything-else phase. Thus it's not clear which year you're in when you're offered the revolution, until you know how it works and have been paying attention to the date.

	05-05-2002 07:02									#7
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ST, no it is Human player(s) moves (by color order), AI player(s) moves (by color order), then NEW TURN with processing of food, shields, money, and beakers (in color order) followed by moves.

	05-05-2002 21:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow ST, no it is Human player(s) moves (by color order), AI player(s) moves (by color order), then NEW TURN with processing of food, shields, money, and beakers (in color order) followed by moves.

It looks it is me who is right:
I started a test: a hotseat game, humans are green (2st civ) and orange (6st civ). I checked the land area in the demographics window in 4000BC: green was 2nd, he didn't move, then orange was 5th.

	06-05-2002 11:41									#9
	I'm not trying to be a slow thinker here, but… Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

No, my point was that the turn processing is separate from the player/AI moves, and that turn processing goes strictly by color order. If two civs are due to reach AC on the same turn, the one with higher color precedence wins, whether AI or human (that's why many play OCC as white, just in case).

I'm not sure I get what your hotseat demonstration proves. "Green was 2nd, he didn't move," which means what? "then orange was 5th" which means what?

	08-05-2002 05:38									#10
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Straybow,
I am sorry, I was too brief.

Green was 2nd in the land area, i.e. just one civ moved its units before (the white AI).
I didn't move with green settlers, and so the land area of green didn't increase. I hit "end of turn".
Then orange was 5th in the land area (before moving), i.e. just 4 civs (white, dark blue, yellow, light blue) moved its units before.

This demonstration proved that human(s) moves are not separated from AIs moves. The order of moves is by the civ color.

	08-05-2002 06:59									#11
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ST, on the first turn there is no turn processing. In a regular game there are no cities, so there is nothing to process. In a scenario the setup is the "turn processing," as it were.

If that is "phase 1" then it would be first turn phase 2 (by color order) then [phase 1 (by color order), phase 2 (by color order)] x turn.

	08-05-2002 17:36									#12
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quote: ST, on the first turn there is no turn processing. In a regular game there are no cities, so there is nothing to process.

I think this is OK. I would say there IS the turn processing, but it is empty (the program finds out there is nothing to do). This situation may continue more turns.

I suppose the scenario setup is something special that precedes all the game.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I ran another test now. It proved that "phases 1" are not performed together, ie. before movements (phases 2) of all civs.

About this test: I was yellow, there was white (AI) warrior besides my city. I rushbuilt a phalanx that should defend my city. Next turn white warrior entered my city without a battle. The phalanx wasn't finished yet.

	09-05-2002 21:28									#13
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Interesting. That would indicate each civ's processing and moves are sequential. Must consider some ramifications…

	10-05-2002 00:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker About this test: I was yellow, there was white (AI) warrior besides my city. I rushbuilt a phalanx that should defend my city. Next turn white warrior entered my city without a battle. The phalanx wasn't finished yet.

But why is this confusing? White moves before yellow, and the phalanx would have been built after the white move. I always thought processing was done before moving individually for each civ, which seems consistent.

	11-05-2002 03:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike But why is this confusing? White moves before yellow, and the phalanx would have been built after the white move. I always thought processing was done before moving individually for each civ, which seems consistent.

Straybow thought that the turn starts by cities processing of all civs (and so the cities processing is separated from the moves):

quote: Originally posted by Straybow No, my point was that the turn processing is separate from the player/AI moves...

	11-05-2002 06:31									#16
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But did we not all know that anyway?

The SGs totally pi$$ed out of their collective minds......

	11-05-2002 15:12									#17
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I would understand if the word order is
But did not we all know that anyway?

But I will suppose the meaning is equal:

What did we know, SGs? The city processing of all civs is separated from the moves or not?

The SlowThinker, always prepared to doubt.

	11-05-2002 18:53									#18
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I'm sure SG will clarify now that they probably aren't so.........lubricated.

	12-05-2002 15:29									#19
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We had always supposed that each civilisation AI and human played their entire turn in neat little bundles as indicated by the colour square in the rh panel - ie White processes its cities and then moves its pieces followed by yellow doing the same thing etc ... Admittedly as we have little or no MP experience we are not yet accustomed to being able to handle ones cities during others moves -- hence our simplistic assumptions -- which appear to have been vindicated....

SG[1] - sober and speaking for SG(2) - he hopes

	12-05-2002 18:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I'm sure SG will clarify now that they probably aren't so.........lubricated.

DrS - is there a Tesco near you - if so go and investigate the wine section where one can obtain a wonderful red decoction entitled "Old Git" -- well as we both qualify - we try very hard to stay in a state of permanent lubrication ...

Sometimes we fail however :bummer:

SG[1]

	12-05-2002 18:59									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits DrS - is there a Tesco near you - if so go and investigate the wine section where one can obtain a wonderful red decoction entitled "Old Git" -- well as we both qualify - we try very hard to stay in a state of permanent lubrication ... Sometimes we fail however :bummer: SG[1]

I will check it out sometime.

	26-05-2002 16:05									#22
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Straybow was probably right partially. I have understood that the PBEM experiences brought the knowledge that the AI cheats and intervenes also when it is not its turn: it changes production when it is attacked and it moves units with remaining movement points.

	27-05-2002 03:51									#23
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SlowThinker You forgot to put in pollution...The only thing I can say about this is that it is counted before improvements are build(the computer always does it to me: turn zero no pollution markers at all in a city, turn 1 build a factory=> immediate polution, rushbuild recycling/Solar-plant, turn 2 again polution and the building is finished??? )

Shade

	27-05-2002 21:03									#24
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Shade, noticed. Will test later.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Straybow was probably right partially. I have understood that the PBEM experiences brought the knowledge that the AI cheats and intervenes also when it is not its turn: it changes production when it is attacked and it moves units with remaining movement points.

I was wrong probably...I want to say I was right and Straybow was wrong...

Anyway my reasoning in the quote is bad.
You play a PBEM as Russians, you save the game and post it to Germans. The German player opens the game in the status where it was saved, i.e. it is the end of Russian turn. So the AI takes Russians (it can only manage cities if Ctrl-N was pressed by the human player), then passes the baton to Germans.