07-05-2002 07:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: They have also had the largest amount of territory in the world by far for the past few hundred years. Alaska is by far the largest state in the US, but I doubt it is that important in the US. The same with Russia, it is a large land mass, but most of that land is inhospitable. According to your list 8 out of the top 11 are European civs. That is a lot for such a small place. Africa, the Americas and Asia are far larger. Quality not quantity is the key.

Yes, and Alaska has abundant natural resources and a strategic location that gives the U.S. key advantages far beyond its population value. It did not turn out to be "Seward's Folly" after all...

Likewise, Siberia has provided the Russians with key natural resources such as timber, fur, oil, and other mineral deposits as well as strategic access to Asia helping them establish a powerful nation.

Eight of the top 11 civs are European because this part of the world has dominated global affairs for the past 500 years and modern history is more relevant to most of us than ancient history. The colonies the Europeans established abroad more than make up for the relatively small amount of space they occupied back home.

Europe also gave birth to some of the most powerful and influential civilizations of ancient times, too, such as the Greeks and Romans. The territory they controlled was significant, too.

	07-05-2002 07:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Serb *Super Herecy* The West is suck, Russia Forever!!! Have a nice day.

You'll never be considered a part of "Europe" with an attitude like that.

Perhaps you should have all the Russians move to Siberia with you.

	07-05-2002 12:39									#33
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar You'll never be considered a part of "Europe" with an attitude like that. Perhaps you should have all the Russians move to Siberia with you.

Blah,
First, of all we are part of Europe, you should learn geography better.
Second, just give me a little time and your thread we’ll be invaded by Russians who will laugh on you and your silly list. Esp. about 4th position in your list. You still didn’t answered why do you think you have right to be in 4th place while Greece is only 8th?

	07-05-2002 13:18									#34
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HEBREWS!

	07-05-2002 13:49									#35
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar While the Greeks had a glorious civilization, it was still relatively small and had only regional influence.

Blah, Blah, Blah.
Relatively small and had only regional influence?
You never heard that Alexander the Great was the Pharon of Egypt and the King of All Asia? That Greeks reached India, that they made a perhaps the biggest influence on all modern civ's?

	07-05-2002 14:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Blah, Blah, Blah. Relatively small and had only regional influence? You never heard that Alexander the Great was the Pharon of Egypt and the King of All Asia? That Greeks reached India, that they made a perhaps the biggest influence on all modern civ's?

plus they've got the biggest nuts.

	07-05-2002 18:06									#37
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Would someone be sos kind as to explain me how Russia would have been greater than Germany over time?

	07-05-2002 21:48									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Blah, First, of all we are part of Europe, you should learn geography better. Second, just give me a little time and your thread we’ll be invaded by Russians who will laugh on you and your silly list. Esp. about 4th position in your list. You still didn’t answered why do you think you have right to be in 4th place while Greece is only 8th?

I'm sorry to say this since I defended you on this matter before in another thread, but my geography is a thousand times better than your English.

I put "Europe" in quotes meaning an idea of a cultural sphere. You cannot deny that many Russians have an identity crisis figuring out if they are "European", "Eurasian", or "Russian". The last time I heard, according to a poll, more than half of all Russians picked the last two choices instead of wanting to be called "European". Anyhow more than two-thirds of Russia is in Asia.

The Greeks never had worldwide influence. They did have a tremendous impact on Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, but their territory was still smaller than the top 12 I have listed. But because of their great contributions, I have put them ahead of a few of these. Anyhow, their rule over the larger part of the lands they conquered was "relatively" short-lived.

Which brings me to another matter. Do you read carefully the posts of others? Do you know what the word "relatively" means? Just to help you, I will tell you that it means "in relation to". Compare the lands conquered by the Greeks to the wide and expansive territories ruled and settled by the English, Chinese, French, Spanish, etc.

Tell the Russians to come and invade this thread. I'm sure they will crumble to logic and reason, just like their form of government did.

Judgment:
No changes to list warranted.

	07-05-2002 21:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Would someone be sos kind as to explain me how Russia would have been greater than Germany over time?

Russia consolidated years before Germany did. They have controlled much more territory for a much longer time, too. The Russians truly had and still have an impressive empire. The Germans only had a couple of colonies. While the Germans have made significant contributions to science, music, philosophy, etc, so have the Russians and in many more fields. Also, the Germans have never quite had the global impact that the Russians did. Anyhow, Germany lost two world wars, Russia sided with the winners in both (even though WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution hurt them badly). Thus, Germany failed key opportunities for greater power, while Russia succeeded in at least one.

	07-05-2002 23:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha only because alaska is cold, if it was all beach front property on the other hand, AND it was on the equator...

That was my point.

quote: Yes, and Alaska has abundant natural resources and a strategic location that gives the U.S. key advantages far beyond its population value. It did not turn out to be "Seward's Folly" after all... Likewise, Siberia has provided the Russians with key natural resources such as timber, fur, oil, and other mineral deposits as well as strategic access to Asia helping them establish a powerful nation.

So you agree that its not its size that is important, but what it has to offer in terms of resources, etc..


That was really the only point I was trying (and must have failed) to get across.

	08-05-2002 01:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar Russia consolidated years before Germany did. They have controlled much more territory for a much longer time, too. The Russians truly had and still have an impressive empire. The Germans only had a couple of colonies. While the Germans have made significant contributions to science, music, philosophy, etc, so have the Russians and in many more fields. Also, the Germans have never quite had the global impact that the Russians did. Anyhow, Germany lost two world wars, Russia sided with the winners in both (even though WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution hurt them badly). Thus, Germany failed key opportunities for greater power, while Russia succeeded in at least one.

Bah, just look how they're off nowadays!

	08-05-2002 02:59									#42
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Don't worry Ecthelion. When Serb starts up one of his fits (and he will), I'll move the Greeks and Germans ahead of the Russians.

	08-05-2002 03:35									#43
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hehe, how true.

anyway, despite all the Russian power and wealth, did you count in Prussian and Austrian dominance of (at least central) Europe as in 'power and greatness' of Germany?
and then there's all the musicians, thinkers, scientists... they got them too, but to a lesser extent

	08-05-2002 03:54									#44
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Why hasn't Serb started his fit yet? I thought my post on Russia would set him off, but all it did was spark an intelligent debate. That isn't what I was going for...

	08-05-2002 04:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Overall, Germany would have been more influential and great and wonderful than Russia.

Ecthelion, it seems you've got a kind of small/pns complex towards Russia.

	08-05-2002 04:41									#46
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar I'll move the Greeks and Germans ahead of the Russians.

Don't do this, pleeeese.

	08-05-2002 04:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar Anyhow, Germany lost two world wars, Russia sided with the winners in both (even though WWI and the Bolshevik Revolution hurt them badly).

In what WWII is concerned, it would be more accurate to say that the winners sided with Russia. And this is what finally made them the winners.

	08-05-2002 05:17									#48
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As for the list in general (here I refer to the second version of the list), I agree that the English, the Chinese and the Romans warrant the first three places. Perhaps, not necessarily in the order given by siredgar, but they definitely form the leading group. As for the second group (places from 4th to 8th), it is also reasonable. Well, again, one could argue about the particular place distribution within this group, but IMHO all the civs of this group are rightfully there.

As for the American Civilization, it is actually counted twice in the list. First, it counts as a legacy of the English Civilization. It's only due to this legacy that the English deserve the first place in the list. On the other hand, it counts as a civilization by itself.

	08-05-2002 07:03									#49
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar The English conquered the Scots, Welsh, and Irish and then formed the British Empire.

Actually, the English did not perminently conquor the Scots. Edward the first claimed the contested Scottish crown and fought over Scotland for most of his reign but as soon as he was dead the English were once again out of Scotland. Scotland remained independent until Elizabeth the first died without and heir and Scottish King James the VI became the King of England as well as of Scotland. Thus, in a way, the Scots took over the English and not the other way around. In order to highlight this change James decided to call his new kingdom Great Britian (which included the Kingdoms of England & Scotland plus the Duchy of Wales) and this became the official name of the country after the Act of Union one hundred years later.
Later when Ireland was official incorporated as part of the home kingdom the name was again changed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland or U.K. for short.

	08-05-2002 07:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond In what WWII is concerned, it would be more accurate to say that the winners sided with Russia. And this is what finally made them the winners.

Certainly the Russian front was the most important in the war but the British and French were at war with Germany before the USSR got caught up in it. So how could they have followed? Of course it is doubtful they would have won without the Red Army taking on most of the German land forces.

	08-05-2002 08:23									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Certainly the Russian front was the most important in the war but the British and French were at war with Germany before the USSR got caught up in it. So how could they have followed? Of course it is doubtful they would have won without the Red Army taking on most of the German land forces.

I give much respect to the Brits, but France practicly rolled out the welkommen mat for the Germans when they bypassed their silly bunker line by going through Belgiam.

	08-05-2002 08:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar I put "Europe" in quotes meaning an idea of a cultural sphere. You cannot deny that many Russians have an identity crisis figuring out if they are "European", "Eurasian", or "Russian". The last time I heard, according to a poll, more than half of all Russians picked the last two choices instead of wanting to be called "European". Anyhow more than two-thirds of Russia is in Asia.

that's just silly. of course there is the 'traditional' western europe which practicly everyone in the west thinks of when just "europe" is mentioned. gee, why would that be?

As far as the poll, well, of course if given the choice between the three most would probably say Russian. If mexicans were asked "are you mexican, north-central american or american" which would you think they would choose? that's just a stupid poll.

The fact is, Russia is is in europe and more than 90% of its population resides west of the Ural mountains. There is no "identity crisis." We know who we are, but you don't. And that's the difference.

quote: The Greeks never had worldwide influence. They did have a tremendous impact on Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, but their territory was still smaller than the top 12 I have listed. But because of their great contributions, I have put them ahead of a few of these. Anyhow, their rule over the larger part of the lands they conquered was "relatively" short-lived.

the Greek Empire under Alexander the great had more terretory and more influence than did the roman Empire. They conquered all of Persia and mid east for goodness sakes. look at a map and tell me the romans had more territory at their peak. That the empire was not stable after Alexander is what led to the conquest being short-lived, but its culture has taken root as far north as Russia, west into rome (who incorporated it and spread it again), south to egypt etc. All those cultures that were influenced just propegated the bits of greek culture which they have assimilated. If you want to think of it in a more modern context, ever have to find the area or circumference of a circle? ever work with triangles in a geometry or trigonametry class? a millennia later we still use pythagorus' and Archimedes' math. what about the word "alphabet" and the first two letters of it in almost all european languages? constellations and fret houses? the greek culture lives on today in the most real ways. if there were no greece, you couldn't complain about civ3 being released as a "beta", could you? If that's not "world-wide" influence, then what is?

lastly, it seems that the russians have taken more offence about greece being in such a lower spont than anything that's been said about russia here.

	08-05-2002 09:11									#53
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar I'm sorry to say this since I defended you on this matter before in another thread, but my geography is a thousand times better than your English.

Oh, sure.

quote: I put "Europe" in quotes meaning an idea of a cultural sphere.

Silly boy.
You think I didn’t understand this? I just had to answer it somehow, so I’ve answered like I did (to piss you off a little. ).

quote: You cannot deny that many Russians have an identity crisis figuring out if they are "European", "Eurasian", or "Russian". The last time I heard, according to a poll, more than half of all Russians picked the last two choices instead of wanting to be called "European". Anyhow more than two-thirds of Russia is in Asia.

Crisis?
Why should I deny truth?
We are unique civilization-we are European on half and Asian on another half. Our geographical location and our history make us unique.

quote: The Greeks never had worldwide influence. They did have a tremendous impact on Europe, the Middle East, and Africa, but their territory was still smaller than the top 12 I have listed.

Blah,
The Greeks dominated over all known world of that time.
Their territory was smaller then territory of Arabs, Germans, Babylonians, Egyptians and French?
Look at modern map if you don’t have any ancient map. Every city with name Alexandria form Egypt to India is founded by Greeks. The spread of Hellenism on those territories had huge impact on cultures.

quote: But because of their great contributions, I have put them ahead of a few of these. Anyhow, their rule over the larger part of the lands they conquered was "relatively" short-lived.

It brings us to the question I’ve asked TWICE and still didn’t receive an answer.
Greek’s rule over those territories lasted for centuries. They made a huge scientific and CULTURAL legacy. You put them on 12 and later on 8 places. At the same time you put USA on 4 th place. The USA becomes more or less powerful country only after WW2 and even after this time it was not a single super power. You become a single super power only after collapse of the Soviet Union. It means that your rule as super power last only 11 YEARS. In compare with CENTURIES it’s nothing. From historical perspective you suck as civilization. If you created poll about the greatest countries ever, then your list might have some sense, but you asked about CIVILIZATIONS. As CIVILIZATION you suck. In compare to Greece you deeply suck. They scientific and cultural legacy is huge. What your “civilization” left for humanity? Britney Spears and Spiderman? You even don’t have your own alphabet.
Succkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers.
Perhaps in say year 2502 A.C. some might say about USA as about civilizaton, but not today. As civilization you are children now.

quote: Which brings me to another matter. Do you read carefully the posts of others? Do you know what the word "relatively" means?

Sure I know what it means. It seems that you don’t understand its meaning.

quote: Tell the Russians to come and invade this thread.

They are already there. Hi guys.

quote: I'm sure they will crumble to logic and reason, just like their form of government did.

Oh sure.
You are the only one who denies logic here.

P.S. Perhaps I should call for Paiktis to enlighten you about Ancient Greece?

	08-05-2002 09:21									#54
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* morb high fives serb.

	08-05-2002 09:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond In what WWII is concerned, it would be more accurate to say that the winners sided with Russia. And this is what finally made them the winners.

Exactly!

S nastupayushim!!!
Eti oleni dazhe ne otmechayut Den pobedy kak gosudarstvennyi prazdnik. ‘Pobeditely’ huevy.

	08-05-2002 09:28									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Exactly! S nastupayushim!!! Eti oleni dazhe ne otmechayut Den pobedy kak gosudarstvennyi prazdnik. ‘Pobeditely’ huevy.

zdes' trudno nayti ludey katoriye dazhe znayut chto takoy vtaraya mirovaya voina. zabud' o dne popedi...

	08-05-2002 09:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by morb lastly, it seems that the russians have taken more offence about greece being in a lower spont, than russia herself. count me in on that i guess.

Mozhet pora eto ispravit?

quote: zdes' trudno nayti ludey katoriye dazhe znayut chto takoy vtaraya mirovaya voina. zabud' o dne popedi...

"Vot urody"
"Brat-2".

Ne smoterel sluchaino? Klassnyi film. Davno ty tam?

	08-05-2002 09:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why hasn't Serb started his fit yet? I thought my post on Russia would set him off, but all it did was spark an intelligent debate. That isn't what I was going for...

Re-read my first post then. Never noticed sign *WARNING* there? It was pure trolling and my personal revenge to siredgar.


But, if you want to start a real fight, any time. Just say it. I guess you are desendent of Vikings. Am I right?

	08-05-2002 09:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Serb "Vot urody" "Brat-2". Ne smoterel sluchaino? Klassnyi film. Davno ty tam?

ne-a. zdes' desyat let. skoro 11. proshlim letom pravda k rodstvinnikam v belgorodskuyu oblast' yezdil.

	08-05-2002 09:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Ecthelion, it seems you've got a kind of small/pns complex towards Russia.

He killing kittens to often.