11-05-2002 22:14									#91
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From my understanding, the Baltic and Black Seas are considered parts of the Atlantic Ocean.

	11-05-2002 22:16									#92
	Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the greatest civilizations of all time? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah India is the origin of the Peace Movement, invented Chess, initiated TWO world religions and then some and produces more movies than the rest of the world put together.

Yes, I've seen some of those movies and I'll be sure to knock down India a couple of more notches for them.

	12-05-2002 11:00									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Fayadi 3.Russian- I love those great conquerors since 1600 AD their empires stretches as far from Atlantic Ocean to Pacific Ocean from bordering with Germany to border with China and America.Look I know Size is not everything for a Civilization's greatness but remember it wasnt easy for Russia to manage such a large for centuries.They are the first one to go to space ,expanded the potentials of missiles

Byeond the Pacific, beyond
We have the common frontier with USA only after we sold Alaska to them.
Thanks for support.

	12-05-2002 11:21									#94
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar Anyhow, sure, I like cheese or chease as you call it.

Please keep point on my grammar errors. It's very helpfull.

So, peace or not?

	12-05-2002 11:39									#95
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Giovanni,same I am a Juventus fans too ,Cheers!
By the way Russia during Soviet Union is 2.5 times the size of USA, 1/7 the size of Earth's land,incredible........A Russian becomes a tourist of his own country will takes decades to explore...
Sorry to mention that Italy is a small country now,they arent so small actually,they are the 6/7th largest economy in the world in GDP

	12-05-2002 12:29									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Fayadi By the way Russia during Soviet Union is 2.5 times the size of USA, 1/7 the size of Earth's land,incredible........

In terms of territory, 1/6 during SU. I guess now, after desintegration of SU we have 1/7 of the world's territory.

	12-05-2002 17:01									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Serb So, peace or not?

We wish to propose a deal.

We want:
Peace Treaty
World Map
550 gold
25 gold/per turn
Vladivostok

We offer:
Peace Treaty

	12-05-2002 17:56									#98
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar We wish to propose a deal. We want: Peace Treaty World Map 550 gold 25 gold/per turn Vladivostok We offer: Peace Treaty

Sure we agreed.










*General launch the nukes!*
Farewell Washington D.C. I wish you a good meeting with your founding fathers.

	12-05-2002 18:05									#99
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My own personnal ranking

1 - China
I don't think I have to argue about why

2 - Ancient Greece
Land of philosophers, extremely rich culture ,mythology, writings, and science. A culture goliath.

3 - Ancient Rome
Influence even now the western world. Nurturish dreams of power and great empires.

4 - Ancient Egypt
Old, very old civilization. Enormous achievements, thousands years of reign, very advanced in many parts. The fact that we're still remembering it is a proof of its importance.

5 - France
Center of Europe in science, thinking, culture and aura for centuries (members of nobility talked french rather than their homeland language throughout all Europe). Home of the modern philosophers, shakened the western world in 1789 and changed it forever.

6 - Arabs
Extremely advanced civilization for the times, much more tolerant than anything else in the area, big advances in sciences, culturally very developped.

7 - India
Very old culture, very subtle. Not better placed because of lack of unity and influence essentially regional.

8 - Japan
Rich culture, which was able to stand the drastic changes of modern times and still spread itself worldwide.

9 - USA
Subculture for masses, ok. But conquering and widespread culture anyway. Very important in the actual world, only hyperpower in existence.

10 - Aztecs/Mayas/Incas
Here it's only because of my own ignorance that I can't know which one of these three is the greatest, and that I have trouble to differentiate the cultures. Their astronomers and scientists were quite advanced, and their masoners were outstanding (they were able to carry several hundred tons-heavy stones from the next valley to the high of a mountains without using wheel...)

11 - Byzantine empire
12 - Russia
13 - Spain
14 - Babylon
15 - Persia
16 - Mali
17 - Celts
18 - England/UK
19 - Ottomans/Turks
20 - Native Americans.

	12-05-2002 18:30									#100
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By the way, Serb, you inspired me to play the Russians for the first time in a long while. It's 1510 AD and I'm kicking butt. I haven't reached the Pacific Ocean yet, but I have taken all of Germany, Eastern Europe, and Finland, and half of the Middle East.

Oh yeah, on a side note, Jimmy Carter is visiting Cuba and I will call it right here: Castro is dead within a few weeks. JC is like the Grim Reaper of world politics. Every time he visits a dictator who never seems to go away, they die a few weeks later. He did that with Sani Abacha (Nigeria) and Kim Il Sung (North Korea). I bet the CIA implants some kind of a poison on his handshake without him knowing because the Jimmy is just too nice to knowingly serve as an assassin.

	13-05-2002 09:53									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Fayadi Giovanni,same I am a Juventus fans too ,Cheers! By the way Russia during Soviet Union is 2.5 times the size of USA, 1/7 the size of Earth's land,incredible........A Russian becomes a tourist of his own country will takes decades to explore... Sorry to mention that Italy is a small country now,they arent so small actually,they are the 6/7th largest economy in the world in GDP

Dont' worry about that!
I perfectly know that we are small..... we are just a really tiny boot in tha middle of a small sea!

I guess that (like siredgar said) if you considered the Baltic sea as part of the Atlantic... well...i can sea how Russia streches from tha Atlantic to the Pacific (going the long way.... not the short way like US and Canada do )

P.S. keep cheering Juventus.... that's the way to go

Saluti

	13-05-2002 10:32									#102
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Ok... you convinced me:
Here is my ranking:

Top 10:

1. China: one of the most ancient civ in the world still existing today, always played an important role in the world and most popolous country, they have the biggest military, don't have to talk any further.

2. Rome (+ Italy) : I hope you allow me to put them together.... anyway, well, one of the only civ to unite western Europe (except Germany), one of the civ with the highest culture ranking, and many modern Italian city (Rome, Venice, Florence, Palermo, Naples, Milan ) are visited every year by so many tourist all around the world, that is an alien civ would come in Italy during summer vacation would say that Italy is a Japanese colony.
Many of their innovations are still used again (for example this very same alphabet I'm using right now).

3. Ancient (+ modern) Greece: Probably the civ with the highest culture (?), homeland of pholosophy, mother of Democracy, their culture was later absorbed by the Romans that spreaded it around the known world, and is still having a huge influence in today western nations!

4. India (Modern and Ancient): big country, huge culture, developed two world religions that had and still have a huge number of followers. Homeland of the non-violent protest.

5. Russia: the biggest nation in the world, was one of the most powerful nations of the world, and probably was the most powerful while under communism. They are now caming back again and once again they'll probably be the most powrful (and only powerful) eastern European civ. Lots of resources, industries and still a great military... all they need is some more money for investiments and they have many chances of being a world super-power once again.

6. United Kingdom/Great Britain: Had the largest colonial empire and helded it for many years. They have the most advanced military. Dominated the seas for centuries and spread out their language (as we can see).

7. Ancient (and modern) Egypt: The oldest civ in the world, the oldest wonder in the world that are still standing. Great culture impact and still lot's of misteries about them. They were one of the biggest empire of their time.

8. Arabs: they conquered allthe middle east and the northern Africa in a relatively short time. They gave birth to the biggest religion in the world. They are still having a pretty big impact in world politics.

9. Germany: great music composer, scientist, philosophers, they shaked the world twice... and the last time they were about to win, biggest European economy, still a big military.

10. USA: The father of democracy (the mother is Greece), because they are the first to actually applied it to everybody (even if segregation and racism was a big threat to their democracy until the end of WW2). They now have the biggest economy in the world and the most efficient military. They rank so low only because their culture ranking is not very high, even if they are catching up rapidly with all their fastfood, jeans, and so on, that every country (beside maybe Italy ) seems to appreciate so much. They don't have their own language

11. France: scientist, philosopher, musicians, they had it all, biggest western European country (in matter of territory), and a fairly good military.

12. Spain
13. Portugal: Both countries had a huge colonial empire, their own language and mastered the art of esploration, Spain rank before bacause of biggerf influence in world affaires at that time, and bigger territory (modern).

14. Japan: became important much later than China or Korea, but had a huge impact in the world, they were a protagonist during WW2 were they controled their two nearby civs, and now are one of the biggest economy and most advanced state in the world.

15. Korea (North and South): One of the oldest and most pacific civ in the world, thay have their own language and they are know one of the biggest exporter in the world. they have their own language, alphabet and culture, and now are one of the most scientificely (sp?) nation in the world (south only).

This is my top 15:
Still surprise me the exclusion of Arabs, Spain and Korea from the original Civ3!!!!

Saluti

	13-05-2002 15:15									#103
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Hi!
I am new to this forum, but I have been to others. Here is my list of the best civs, please, attention to those who may want to feel offended, please feel free to be offended. But.....look at the list first.

Afro-Asiatic (372)
Alacalufan (2)
Algic (40)
Altaic (65)
Amto-Musan (2)
Andamanese (13)
Arauan (8)
Araucanian (2)
Arawakan (60)
Artificial language (3)
Arutani-Sape (2)
Australian (258)
Austro-Asiatic (168)
Austronesian (1262)
Aymaran (3)
Barbacoan (7)
Basque (3)
Bayono-Awbono (2)
Caddoan (5)
Cahuapanan (2)
Cant (1)
Carib (29)
Chapacura-Wanham (5)
Chibchan (22)
Chimakuan (1)
Choco (10)
Chon (2)
Chukotko-Kamchatkan (5)
Chumash (7)
Coahuiltecan (1)
Creole (81)
Deaf sign language (114)
Dravidian (75)
East Bird's Head (3)
East Papuan (36)
Eskimo-Aleut (11)
Geelvink Bay (33)
Guahiban (5)
Gulf (4)
Harakmbet (2)
Hmong-Mien (32)
Hokan (28)
Huavean (4)
Indo-European (443)
Iroquoian (10)
Japanese (12)
Jivaroan (4)
Katukinan (3)
Keres (2)
Khoisan (29)
Kiowa Tanoan (6)
Kwomtari-Baibai (6)
Language Isolate (30)
Left May (7)
Lower Mamberamo (2)
Lule-Vilela (1)
Macro-Ge (32)
Maku (6)
Mascoian (5)
Mataco-Guaicuru (11)
Mayan (69)
Misumalpan (4)
Mixe-Zoque (16)
Mixed Language (8)
Mosetenan (1)
Mura (1)
Muskogean (6)
Na-Dene (47)
Nambiquaran (5)
Niger-Congo (1489)
Nilo-Saharan (199)
North Caucasian (34)
Oto-Manguean (172)
Paezan (1)
Panoan (30)
Peba-Yaguan (2)
Penutian (33)
Pidgin (17)
Quechuan (46)
Salishan (27)
Salivan (2)
Sepik-Ramu (104)
Sign language (2)
Sino-Tibetan (365)
Siouan (17)
Sko (7)
South Caucasian (5)
Subtiaba-Tlapanec (4)
Tacanan (6)
Tai-Kadai (70)
Torricelli (48)
Totonacan (11)
Trans-New Guinea (552)
Tucanoan (25)
Tupi (70)
Unclassified (96)
Uralic (38)
Uru-Chipaya (2)
Uto-Aztecan (62)
Wakashan (5)
West Papuan (26)
Witotoan (6)
Yanomam (4)
Yenisei Ostyak (2)
Yukaghir (2)
Yuki (2)
Zamucoan (2)
Zaparoan (7)

	13-05-2002 16:20									#104
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Run! Run! The Unclassified are attacking!!

	13-05-2002 18:47									#105
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Giovanni Wine,

Have you ever seen or put together an add to Civ, for Italians? hey could be scientific and commercial, Mussolini or Garibaldi as the leader, perhaps the fascist (brown shirt) as the special unit in Modern Era.

Let meknow if you know where I can find.

Thanks.

	13-05-2002 23:26									#106
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine Ok... you convinced me: Here is my ranking: Top 10: 15. Korea (North and South): One of the oldest and most pacific civ in the world, thay have their own language and they are know one of the biggest exporter in the world. they have their own language, alphabet and culture, and now are one of the most scientificely (sp?) nation in the world (south only). This is my top 15: Still surprise me the exclusion of Arabs, Spain and Korea from the original Civ3!!!! Saluti

Yay, Saluti! Thanks for including the Koreans on your list and especially recognizing the overall peaceful nature of their civilization. Civs should not be ranked solely on territorial conquest, enslavement of other peoples, and political domination. Cultural merit should be more important.

But you have to know that modern Korea pales in comparison to ancient Korea. It is really Korean civilization up to the 16th or 17th century that is notable. After that, the Koreans are pretty ashamed of their history, especially being subjugated to the Japanese who they long considered inferior.

One thing, however. How can you rank India and Russia ahead of England? After all the English conquered India and Russia was never as powerful or influential as England. We are communicating in English, right? Culturally, their civilization has also had a greater impact all over the world than the Indians or the Russians. They also started the Industrial Revolution!

	13-05-2002 23:55									#107
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar They also started the Industrial Revolution!

I would also point out that that was 50-100 years before the rest of the industrialised world. The first English factories being constructed well before the end of the 18th Century, whilst most others weren't industrialising until the mid 19th.

	14-05-2002 00:34									#108
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Here's my Top Ten, if anyone cares....

1. China, just for the time they've been there, plus the cultural impact they've had in that region
2. India, another ancient with large impact
3. Ancient Rome, large cultural impact on Europe, and rest of area they controlled.
4. Ancient Greece, impact stretched to the Romans..and there's a reason will still study their writings today.
5. England, huge Empire, big world wide impact from many of their actions, whether wrong or right
6. Spanish...look how many people still speak their language
Now it gets tough
The French?
The US?
Germans?
Japanese?
Mongols?
Aztecs?
Albanians?... Albanians!? (just kidding)
Russians?
etc

7. Lets go with Japanese, another civ that has survived so many years, even though their Empire never stretched far for long, their culture has
8. Egyptians...another ancient civ stillstanding, and who dominated the world (as it was to them) for many years
9. Arabs, how many times did they stop the Crusaders? how long have they lived the way they have?
10. Aztecs...after all didn't they make chocolate

Another plug for the Italians, never a huge empire but huge impact culturally, religiously, commercially, philisophically, scirntifically, and huge player. (I mean people are talking about the Dutch, Portuguese, and Celts) Italians should be in top 20.

Too bad Firaxis couldn't give us a much larger group of Civs too choose from, how much space could it take?

	14-05-2002 00:37									#109
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Albert Camus: "France, Italy and Spain form one same nation"


For the purposes of this thread, you may well replace 'nation' by 'civilization'.

	14-05-2002 03:45									#110
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd Giovanni Wine, Have you ever seen or put together an add to Civ, for Italians? hey could be scientific and commercial, Mussolini or Garibaldi as the leader, perhaps the fascist (brown shirt) as the special unit in Modern Era. Let meknow if you know where I can find. Thanks.

I remember one scenario for Civ2 called "Europe" where there were English, French, Germans, Austrians, Russian, Turkish and Italians.

The Italian leader was Giovanni Giolitti , one of our greatest statesman.... but i think that using King Vittorio Emanuele II the king that unified Italy would have been a better choice.
Mussolini would be another good choice if you want to create a "militaristic" Italy.

For Italy I see good 3 traits to choose from: Commercials (famous explorers and great trade cities like Venice and Genoa), Scientific (many great scientist), Religious (lots of Cathedrals, most of our art is raleted to religiuos stuff (the David for example) and many Popes).

Garibaldi I see him better as a great leader, not the leader.

You made me willing to start working on a mod that add Italy now.... Ok..... I'm going to work

Saluti



two minutes later:

	14-05-2002 03:53									#111
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar One thing, however. How can you rank India and Russia ahead of England? After all the English conquered India and Russia was never as powerful or influential as England. We are communicating in English, right? Culturally, their civilization has also had a greater impact all over the world than the Indians or the Russians. They also started the Industrial Revolution!

Well....
to say the truth I was really fighting with myself on which of those three civs should have been the first one!

Here is what led me to the choice:

1) Years they exist (India 1, UK 2, Russia 3)
2) Population (India 1, Russia 2, UK 3)
3) Territory (Russia 1, India 2, UK 3)
4) Culture (India 1, UK 2, Russia 3)
5) Been a world power? (UK and Russia (as URSS)
6) Economy now (UK 1, Russia 2, India 3)

To say the truth I didn't thought of the industrial revolution, if I did probably I would have ranked the UK before Russia.
Anyway.... it is a matter of 1-2 points difference between the two nations!

Saluti

EDIT: I just decided that England should be ahead of China too, they deserve to be the first one.... and you know why?..... because they invented SOCCER

	14-05-2002 04:10									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine Well.... to say the truth I was really fighting with myself on which of those three civs should have been the first one! Here is what led me to the choice: 1) Years they exist (India 1, UK 2, Russia 3) 2) Population (India 1, Russia 2, UK 3) 3) Territory (Russia 1, India 2, UK 3) 4) Culture (India 1, UK 2, Russia 3) 5) Been a world power? (UK and Russia (as URSS) 6) Economy now (UK 1, Russia 2, India 3) To say the truth I didn't thought of the industrial revolution, if I did probably I would have ranked the UK before Russia. Anyway.... it is a matter of 1-2 points difference between the two nations! Saluti EDIT: I just decided that England should be ahead of China too, they deserve to be the first one.... and you know why?..... because they invented SOCCER

They invented FOOTBALL. SOCCER is an American invention because they were incapable of finding an appropriate word for their HANDMELON game.

Still amazed by how many people rank England so high.
England was the first to start its industrial revolution, and had a big colonial empire for 100 years.
Well, and so what ?
Small culture, few science, nearly zero philosophy, mythology...
If size of the civilization is so important, then Mongols should be first. What make a civ great is its culture and how it added to the humanity history. England, though very powerful during the second half of the 19th century, did not achieved much in this area.

	14-05-2002 05:40									#113
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quote: We are communicating in English, right?

Well, yes. We are communicating in English, but it was USA's influence that made English a world wide spoken language, not England.

	14-05-2002 06:45									#114
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Just my two cents:

The English, French, Germans, Austrians, Swiss, Spanish, Portuguese and Americans are ALL German/Roman nations. They all descend from the Germans who conquered the Roman Empire and who in turn (Franks) reconquered Germania. They were romanized by the Church. They share a common heritage and culture. They really are not separate "civilizations" even though they have become in modern times, separate nations.

I think the Scandinavians/Vikings are a separate civilization although I could understand how one would lump them with the Germans.

I think the Celts are a separate civilization.

I also think the Slavs are as well, with Russia the leading Slavic nation.

I see no mention of the Turks who dominated Central Asia and the ME for nearly 1000 years.

	14-05-2002 11:12									#115
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Hello Civ III fans,

What is the greatest civ of all time? Subjective question.
I contend that the greatest is based in language, and around the world english is taught and spoken everywhere, irrespective of nationality. English speaking people share that culture. Yes if you are reading this you are part of this culture. My country(USA) The greater part of EU, UK and a great number of Asian/Mediterannean are hopelessly interrelated and impacted upon one another.
Which civilization? The New World Order. UU-Spin Doctors With the special ability to piss on your back and tell you its raining and to have (seemingly) everybody believe them, just look at thier polls.

Maelhavok

	14-05-2002 20:11									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine I remember one scenario for Civ2 called "Europe" where there were English, French, Germans, Austrians, Russian, Turkish and Italians. The Italian leader was Giovanni Giolitti , one of our greatest statesman.... but i think that using King Vittorio Emanuele II the king that unified Italy would have been a better choice. Mussolini would be another good choice if you want to create a "militaristic" Italy. For Italy I see good 3 traits to choose from: Commercials (famous explorers and great trade cities like Venice and Genoa), Scientific (many great scientist), Religious (lots of Cathedrals, most of our art is raleted to religiuos stuff (the David for example) and many Popes). Garibaldi I see him better as a great leader, not the leader. You made me willing to start working on a mod that add Italy now.... Ok..... I'm going to work Saluti two minutes later:

King Vittorio Emanuele II it is...makes sense.
I will find that Europe mod, Thanks.
And godspeed on your creating the Italian's.

	14-05-2002 23:15									#117
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[QUOTE]Which civilization? The New World Order. UU-Spin Doctors With the special ability to piss on your back and tell you its raining and to have (seemingly) everybody believe them, just look at thier polls[QUOTE]
Im sorry, but i did not understand this. Can u explain (or anyone) what u were trying to say? And what do u mean by New World Order

Last edited by thinkingamer on 15-05-2002 at 02:14

	14-05-2002 23:36									#118
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quote: Originally posted by thinkingamer Well, yes. We are communicating in English, but it was USA's influence that made English a world wide spoken language, not England.

That reeks of America-centrism. If the national language of the US was USAian (a distinctly different language to English), English would still be the number one language. Of course America has furthered this to greater heights in the mass media age.

Consider the number of countries that speak English, that has nothing to do with America and you will see what I mean:

Australasia, half of Africa, the Indian sub-continent and the whole of North America. How much more global do you want?

	14-05-2002 23:51									#119
	Remove this text

Dear Sagacious Dolphin, i while ur statements are true, i believe that the rest of the world speaks American English not British English.
Just imagine if America Speaks French instead of English: Only Australasia, half of Africa, the Indian sub-continent would speak English, and the rest of the world would speack French.

	15-05-2002 00:08									#120
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quote: and the rest of the world would speack French

No it wouldn't.