05-05-2002 03:34									#1
	Peace Negotiation System seems Broken! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I had a good stretch with EU2 for about ten hour of play, everything seemed to be going sensible. But my latest experience with peace negotiation was Very frustrating. How can I have 99% success, and yet the best the other side will agree to is to give me 20% of what I've conquered? I wouldn't care about the peace if I could actually derive economic benefit from the conquered provinces. But that is not available with the game design... I'll give a few more details in the hopes that someone more experienced can suggest a work-around.

I'm just learing the ropes, so I'm playing France at the weenie level in the age of exploration scenario. In my initial aggressions I was reasonably successful in this game, and ate about five provinces to the NE and another 5 in northern Italy. This earned me a "rather bad" badboy value. Then I built up and attacked Spain, both to my SE and southern Italy. I bungled handling my 2:1 troop superiority, so I couldn't take 'em over completely, but managed to conquer something like ten provinces total. I was able to get something like four of them in the peace, which I considered a bit frustrating, but workable.

Then I turned my sights upon England. I took basically everything they had, excluding colonies and trading posts because I didn't want to chase all over the map since this was just a learning game. I took 15 provinces. The Best I could get was three average ones (Calais, Wesex and one other) at the peace table even thought I had a 99% victory score! This was a little under Half the victory score worth... What gives? It took me like 3 hours of playing to take all of England, and I will pitch the game rather than have to do it 5 times to get what I've already earned on the battlefield.

For the small countries its practical to get it up to 100% and then you can annex them, but powers that have colonies makes that a rather lenghty exercise.

Thoughts Anyone? I'm going to post this on the EU board, once they see fit to approve me posting .

Thanks in advance,

Mark

	05-05-2002 14:49									#2
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What provinces were you asking for?

Most countries are very reluctant to give up any core provinces, and particularly if they have other provinces. Did you try asking for their colonies?

	05-05-2002 15:24									#3
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The English are just stubborn.

When they offered peace, what did they offer? Calais, Wessex...? Had you conquered Anglia?

	05-05-2002 17:51									#4
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Frustrating I know. In my first game with Denmark I had conquered the entire Novgorod Kingdom, reaching a 100%, but I had to take satisfaction with a Vassalization and three provinces, while I was hoping to gain the Center of Trade. I personally think they should remove the rule that a country can only have one province to be annexed. Just controlling all provinces should be enough.

Anyway, I would advise to offer Vassalization (80% needed). You'll earn half their yearly income and you'll have no troubles with revolts. It's better than the alternative of earning some average provinces.

	05-05-2002 21:09									#5
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quote: Originally posted by M@ni@c Anyway, I would advise to offer Vassalization (80% needed). You'll earn half their yearly income and you'll have no troubles with revolts. It's better than the alternative of earning some average provinces.

Vassalisation is 70% AFAIK.

I like the 1 province annexation rule. It prevent too fast expansion for warmongers (and yes - I play warmonger games too ). Besides - there are very few historic examples on large annexations after one war too.

Speaking of stubborn: Playing the Ottomans today I was at war with the Knights of Rhodes. After annihilating their single army and taking their single province they still refused annexation...

	05-05-2002 22:05									#6
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Hi Gents, thanks for the repiles, ideas, and questions. First of all, I'm going to give a link to the same discussion on the EU2 forum, its here .

Havard, I am asking for some of thier core provinces, because that's what I want. I asked at first for pretty much the whole of western england, maybe 5 or six provinces that added to about 80%. I can't ask for colonies and trading posts because I haven't conquered those, and so can't request them. And anyway, I don't Want them . I was trying to keep it simple. You can see more of my reasoning if you want to check the thread linked above.

Sagacious Dolphin, when they offered peace it was Calais plus every two-bit colony and trading post they had, but other than Calais nothing I wanted in the least.

I did go with Vassalization plus Calais in the actual game, but I'm frankly pretty disgusted with the whole thing. You should be able to get ecnomic value from conquered territories after six months or a year whether there is peace or not! The game is no fun because of that design decision, combined with the refusal of powers to accept reality in peace negotiations. If I get badboy points as soon as conquered provinces became economically functional that would be reasonable, and should be the thing that holds expansion in check. Not IMO utterly arbitrary rules.

At this point I doubt I'm going to be interested enough start another game, and its a shame. The micromanagement required in EU2 has me at the breaking point... And needing to conquer territory what seems like may be six times to actually get it all is just too much. Vassalization might be ok, but I have no way to know if vassals actually stay that way or not through a whole game. Based on history they shouldn't.

Thanks for all the comments,

Mark

	06-05-2002 00:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson Hi Gents, thanks for the repiles, ideas, and questions. First of all, I'm going to give a link to the same discussion on the EU2 forum, its here .

Hm... I'll take a look there too then....

quote: Havard, I am asking for some of thier core provinces, because that's what I want. I asked at first for pretty much the whole of western england, maybe 5 or six provinces that added to about 80%. I can't ask for colonies and trading posts because I haven't conquered those, and so can't request them. And anyway, I don't Want them . I was trying to keep it simple. You can see more of my reasoning if you want to check the thread linked above.

As has been mentioned - sometimes the AI can be stubborn... And as I mentioned the AI is not too keen on giving up core provinces if it can avoid it... would you be?

quote: You should be able to get ecnomic value from conquered territories after six months or a year whether there is peace or not!

You do! You gain income from occupied territory, providing it isn't looted...

	06-05-2002 01:00									#8
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Mark Said:

quote: You should be able to get ecnomic value from conquered territories after six months or a year whether there is peace or not!

quote: Originally posted by Havard You do! You gain income from occupied territory, providing it isn't looted...

Oh, how embarassing :0, I had assumed that since I couldn't build troops there or even get the standard provincial economy screen (with church etc.) that I was getting no income from them. So I am getting the province and trade income put into my country? While it doesn't completely satify me, its a lot better than I thought it was. Thanks Havard!

	06-05-2002 01:10									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson At this point I doubt I'm going to be interested enough start another game, and its a shame. The micromanagement required in EU2 has me at the breaking point... And needing to conquer territory what seems like may be six times to actually get it all is just too much. Vassalization might be ok, but I have no way to know if vassals actually stay that way or not through a whole game. Based on history they shouldn't.

Micromanagement, please! Of course I'm only in 1450 now and I only have 8 provinces, but still, I don't think at all this game has much micromanagement. It's not like you have to keep an eye on everything all the time. Is it that hard to send some merchants to a CoT once in a while? Or to send diplomats to the few countries you are concentrating your efforts on? And armies, those you only have to move when there's war. And then it's still a lot of time waiting between sieges. Frankly, I think I have too [i[little[/i] to do in EU2; I think the game's too simple. Long live complex SMAC! Tell me, out of pure interest, do you think AoK has too micromanagement?

	06-05-2002 01:56									#10
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Hi M@ni@c:

Perhaps too much micromanagement (MM) for what I get out of it is more precise... It was when I tried to explore and start some colonies that it really got to me. Have you begun those activities yet? My other problem is that conquest must be done for each province, and, as I griped above, even when you win something you probably won't get to keep it. Units must be built with one mouse click per 1000 guys... I just have a very low tolerance for MM that isn't value-added YMMV. My problem with sending merchants to a COT is that I should be able to set very general guidelines and have it done automatically. Like "send two merchants to COT with best overall payoff" should be an order I could give.

I agree the fact that the econ developments are mostly one-choice-at-a-time (FE promote baliffs or not) makes the economic part of the game exremely shallow. The fact that there are just a few "tech lines" rather than a tree with choices is a big disappointment too.

	06-05-2002 23:05									#11
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I'm afraid (or should I be happy ) I haven't started the rush to the Indias and Americas yet. After all it's only 1450 and I'm having some trouble with exchanging map information. Damn Portuguese! Personally I don't have much troubles with mouse clicking for each 1000 troops. But then again, I haven't arrived in the Napoleonic era where I will probably have to sent (and build!:scared 100000-men armies in the field. You're again right about the shallow choices... It already seems clear this game won't be the replacement of Civ3 I was hoping for. Still I think I will be able to enjoy this game for quite some time, trying out the different countries and strategies.

	06-05-2002 23:21									#12
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Units must be built with one mouse click per 1000 guys...

Can't you click-and-hold as well? Or am I misremembering?

	06-05-2002 23:38									#13
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I think I already tried it, but it didn't work. Though I'll retry. But in any case, they really should have included a better manual. It's not knowing for months those handy little things that makes the gameplay much more annoying.

	07-05-2002 20:51									#14
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Your complaint about the peace negotiations are understandable but its done this way becayse thats how it worked at this point in history. A country that lost a war would typically cede a few towns and a lot of money over to the victor but get most of the occupied territory back. If you score a 100% peace you can demand vasselisation and military access or (normally) choose up to 49% value in provinces. A rich home province with a COT might be worth 40% while you could get a dozen small colonial holdings for the same price. It takes some getting used to but I assure you that you can still expand faster and with less consequences than historically happened.

	08-05-2002 04:59									#15
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Thanks for the insight Grumbold, and the 49% limit is a handy thing to know about. But the fact that its "faster than history" doesn't make it any less tedious a game. As I said above, having to conquer the same turf 6 times is not my idea of fun.

I'm coming to the conclusion that EU2 and I just aren't meant for each other. Perhaps if there's an EU3 with a lot more automation of the current heavy-MM stuff, I'll give it another shot in the future. Thanks everyone for all the useful comments! I'll probably return to EU2 after a bit to try a "breakout" scenario being a small fry. The MM shouldn't be particularly bad that way!

And Grumbold, if you're still "Searching for unique Civilisation growth not predetermined racial templates" we could use your thoughts on how to achieve that in Clash of Civilizations! If you're interested check out our Social and Technology models off the web page. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by how unique our civs can be without racial templates.

	08-05-2002 18:33									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson I'll probably return to EU2 after a bit to try a "breakout" scenario being a small fry. The MM shouldn't be particularly bad that way!

May I suggest Byzantium in that case? I agree with you btw. The only fun countries are probably the small ones. So I think I'll never play Castile or England because they're too easy.

	09-05-2002 02:28									#17
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The beauty of the EU peace negotiation system is that it mirrors the political situation of the time (in Europe, anyhow). You aren't going to overrrun your neighbor in one gulp. You'd whittle them down and make them your vassals, then annex them, gradually convincing the locals that you indeed have the God-given right ot rule them.

	09-05-2002 05:11									#18
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Hi Shadowstrike, I hear you. But... Lets say there's a game that very accurately reflects what happens when one goes grocery shopping (God I hope there isn't Really!) While its a good representation of reality, I expect I'd be fully as engaged and excited playing it as I would by going grocery shopping. I feel somewhat that way about the EU peace resolution system...

	09-05-2002 05:42									#19
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Stubborn AIs and monarchs were things of the time though. Consider that in EU, it is usually likely that a one province nation will accept annexation under any circumstance. Now consider that many, many of the HRE states refused to hand over their claims to their domain, even through they haven't ruled in them for decades. Getting the big powers to cede lands should be difficult as choking a cat. After all, they are the big shots of Europe and its a lot harder breaking their will (have you ceded land for peace as a player? )

Of course if you want the AI to surrender meekly, play EU1. Overrun, anex, rince, repeat. Kinda repetative after the first dozen annexations and the third world conquest game.

	09-05-2002 07:06									#20
	Mark Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Talking about sending merchants to CoT: it's tedious. I own EU and not EU2, but there is a simple 'check' which automatizes it for you.

I hope it is in EU2 too.

	09-05-2002 16:01									#21
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Yes thats a good point. If you want a military dominance game, EU1 is more the thing for you. You can claim up to 3 provinces from a partial war but swallow the whole country if you take everything (excepting the 8 major powers who can never be eliminated entirely).

I love EU2 because it is more historical than any other strategy game on the market. Leaders will refuse to surrender and attack when its crazy to do so. Provinces you've owned for generations will still revolt against your rule if you oppress them. Being the biggest warmonger in the world will make you feared and hated, not loved or fawned upon, and everyone will jump on the bandwagon if an alliance screws up the courage to attack you. Its a lot more fun than overrunning the world in one unstoppable tidal wave like in Civ.

Mark if I have enough free time that I think I can seriously absorb a whole new game system and then provide intelligent comment, I'll start with Clash I've steered clear of the Alt Civ projects so far becasue I know I won't be able to devote time to any of them with any consistency.

	09-05-2002 16:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac Talking about sending merchants to CoT: it's tedious. I own EU and not EU2, but there is a simple 'check' which automatizes it for you. I hope it is in EU2 too.

Yup. It's there. I never use it though...

	10-05-2002 04:39									#23
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Hi All:

Shadowstrike, I don't want a game where the AI rolls over. I just hate having to conquer the same ground over and over.

Hey, vishniac, yes the same auto-Merchant feature is there and that's what I use because I'm too lazy to do it by hand. But as I understand it, the auto-M thing is Very poor because of the way the COT rules work.

Grumbold:

On EU1 vs EU2, as I understand it EU2 is more balanced and harder. That's why I bought it to try out the series and not EU1. As far as I can tell, all the IMO defective territory transfer rules is delay the inevitable. It just makes it feel to me more tedious to defeat the AI, not necessarily harder. It all comes down to the amount of fun per unit playing time. Since I can see myself fighting the same wars over and over again the gratification (conquering in this case) is delayed a lot longer than it has to be. What I Really would like is for them to make the AI better, so that you just can't militarily take over major countries in one shot.

On Clash... you don't really need to devote a lot of time if you haven't got it. Downloading demo 6, reading the short manual, and playing it a few times would take about an hour, and allow you to give us some critical feedback on what is good and what sucks so far (its only like 10% of the real game so far). Feedback while we're working on things is Much more important than after everything is polished. A little time now could give good leverage in making Clash a year from now a kind of game you'd like to play. Only if you like things enough to be interested in serious contributions would you need to read lots of game models etc. We will try to lure you to the dark side of the force in small easily-digestable steps.

	10-05-2002 16:14									#24
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EU2 is the better game, but by "better" I mean that the dsigners have tried to inject even more realism into the model, like all the historical events and domestic policies. Its not designed as a conquer the world game and certainly is less fun to play if that is what you try to do. I can assure you that if you play on the higher difficulty settings then the "badboy" rules will ensure you a world of pain if you try to go that route as the AI goes postal on you, but it won't alter the fact that you will need to take more territory than you can then claim in each war. To grab whole countries in one go you can only vasselise+access, leaving you to attack the next country while you slowly diplo-annex your new vassal.

I'll try and check out Clash sometime soon. You may have to wait until Morrowind is out of my system first