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xRamsesx
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of Candle'Bre
Oct 2001
time: 00:19
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Whilst you do have a valid point GP I couldn't help but take offense at your choice of wording ...
Whether we produce a final product or not is something I can't answer but I can tell you that we are doing our best to acheive that result. The people I'm working with on this project are all terrific people to work with and whilst we do have the hurdles of communication and free-time to surmount, so far we've done a great job and Candle'Bre is on track to become reality.
So GP I doubt anyone can give you a solid answer if that is what you're looking for. However, I'm sure I speak for all when I say that we all believe very strongly that Candle'Bre will come to exist.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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Hey guys! Ramses hit the nail on the head, I think!
Nobody can say for sure at this stage, whether or not we'll crash and burn.
The possibility exists that interest in the project will wane before we get the finished project out the door.
We've gotta live with that possibility, and acknowledge that it IS out there.
However, I've said it before, we've got a number of advantages on our side, and it is my belief that our advantages will enable us to get to where we're going. Among our advantages are:
1) A dedicated, AWESOME team of talented and enthusiastic individuals. It has been nothing but a pleasure to work on this project from day one, and that is, in large part, due to the awesome people assembled to work on it.
2) A plan for taking the game commercial. Unlike the other projects mentioned, we've got our eyes on turning this into a commercial enterprise. That's a bit of a motivational difference (perhaps not for everyone, but certainly for some), because while we may be doing this as a hobby for starters, we've got real, solid plans for incorporating (target date for that is June 1 of this year), and turning our hobby into a business. Those who help get us there will have a stake in the company formed, which will, down the road, translate into dollars.
3) Raw stubbornness on my part. I believe in the assembled team, I believe in my own creative talents, and I believe that there's sufficient interest in seeing this through to completion. The forums here are an integral part of that, too. Interest from fans of the game will help to sustain us when things get frustrating (and they probably will, at some point).
Lots of other advantages, but those are the three that stand out in my mind.
-=Vel=-
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moomin
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Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Sounds good Ram and Vel.
1. I tease a little. But I really do want you guys to succeed. Don't let me discourage you.
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I was amongst those that told Vel to get off the crack when he expressed his idea first time here, way back when. I am very happy he and his men disregarded this sage advice and plowed ahead anyway, and certainly count myself to the well-wishers. Anybody who's ever been involved in any serious development project knows there are som rough times ahead, but as far as I can see from the outside it looks good so far - none of those typical high-flak public fallouts that usually occur about three weeks after a bunch of talanted developer prima donnas annonce they're gonne produce the best thing since sliced bread, for instance.
quote:
2. I advise talking to some of the people (preferably the main people) involved in those other failed projects. I think you would learn something useful. And make it more likely that you won't repeat history.
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I've seen at least one individual with a proven delivery track record hanging around here, and Vel et consortes would do well to snare him to the dark side, yes.
quote:
3. (small point) Vel regarding incentives: How are you assigning ownership stakes for people who work on the project? (For when it goes commercial?) Is it based on # of hours worked? Is it written down?
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Never, ever, underestimate the power of resentment that unleashes the day a pie nobody really dared hope would ever materialize is to be split and shared, yeah. I second this wholeheartedly - if have the foggiest notion of ever going commercial you'd better stop that process right now and set up a contract among yourselves regulating who gets how much under what conditions. But it's a tricky business, especially during a phase where maintaining initial enthusiasm in the crew is the single most important factor. Neither, frankly, do I think the Cindy's Breastians would do themselves a favour by discussing matters like this in the open here. Saying, "Yes, gentlemen, that concern has been attended to, thankyouverymuch." would be nice to ease our doubts, though...
quote:
4. (nother small point) Vel, I know you said you're stubborn, but would you (could you) desing and code this thing entirely by yourself?
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Yes, it has generally been the pattern that sucessful open-source games have the background of one single guy with a vision that codes it all the way to a game that is so playable that people want to play it on its own merits - and then it snowballs into a co-operative effort as others, drawn by the smell of success, decide to join the tweaking efforts. But that's not in the cards here, since the team's already formed, so all we can do is sit back on our comfy sun chairs, sippin' drinks and merit points for style as we watch whether this particular contestant will sink or swim. And to throw in some occasional encouraging word, of course.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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morning again guys! And not to worry....it's discussions like these that keep us grounded. It's all too easy, when focusing in on the game itself, or hearing nothing but good things, to conveniently forget the fact that there are some real landmines out there....and those of you who remind us OF those pitfalls are valuable indeed. We NEED that sort of reminder now and again....that's so important, because without it, we may veer too far off course and crash the whole project simply by not paying attention. So, I really DO rely on these discussions to keep a portion of my attention on what could go wrong. Maybe that won't be enough to save us in the end, if something really major does go wrong, but I'd rather have a bit of advance warning in any case...
As far as our eventually splitting of that pie when it comes to that, we had a huge powwow about that early on, and decided that there was no way of reliably estimating just who would be able to contribute exactly what to the project, so, we're relying on the team leads (Me, Ram, and Cathy) to keep track of the people in their respective areas to determine who's doing what, how much time is involved in that (in terms of both total hours and overall importance to the game itself), and we'll make our equity decisions based on that....but of course, that's something we can't accurately determine till we cross the finish line.
And where my own stubborness is concerned....I can say that, yes. If it came to that....if the project fell apart for some reason, and everybody went their own separate ways....in order to see it to completion, I'd learn to program, master Bryce, and try to do it all myself. I don't think the end result would be nearly as good as it'll be this way, but I would stubbornly try....
-=Vel=-
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TCO
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Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
As far as our eventually splitting of that pie when it comes to that, we had a huge powwow about that early on, and decided that there was no way of reliably estimating just who would be able to contribute exactly what to the project, so, we're relying on the team leads (Me, Ram, and Cathy) to keep track of the people in their respective areas to determine who's doing what, how much time is involved in that (in terms of both total hours and overall importance to the game itself), and we'll make our equity decisions based on that....but of course, that's something we can't accurately determine till we cross the finish line. |
Wrong answer. Go back and rethink this.
quote:
And where my own stubborness is concerned....I can say that, yes. If it came to that....if the project fell apart for some reason, and everybody went their own separate ways....in order to see it to completion, I'd learn to program, master Bryce, and try to do it all myself. I don't think the end result would be nearly as good as it'll be this way, but I would stubbornly try....
-=Vel=- |
Right answer.
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xRamsesx
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of Candle'Bre
Oct 2001
time: 00:19
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GP, it seems to me that you're asking a lot of questions about our buisiness practices and implementation rather than the game concept and ideas which is what this forum is supposed to be about. How we do things I think should really be something that we as a group privately decide on. We've been working together for 4 months now and have come to an understanding on how we'll be doing things privately amongst ourselves.
Are you interested in investing in our little venture? If so then I'm sure Vel and our buisiness development people can talk to you in some more detail to see if you'd be interested or not.
Or are you thinking of joining the group? If you are why don't you tell us in what way you could help us (code/art/writing/testing) and maybe we can find the perfect niche in our group to welcome you in.
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moomin
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Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GP
Vel, do you at least have a contract between the 3 team leaders regarding ownership? How close and how committeda re you guys. Ever work together on something else? What do you do if one team leader gets tired of the project?
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GP, you realize these are intimate questions to ask, don't you? I woldn't be comfortable discussing stuff like this on the web board - beyond, perhaps, "We've dealt with that" or "I'll think 'bout it some more".
Furthermore, I can't but say I find your reply above needlessly aggressive. I agree with you in fact - I too believe Vel and his men would be well advised to sit down and work out a deal right now - but there is a slim possibility that the interpersonal dynamics of this particular group will carry it thru' anyway. You're approch to this whole discussion makes me feel as if I'm the good cop in a "good cop - bad cop" excercise and I can't say I particularly enjoy it. Neither, I'm sure, does Vel, although the man is far to polite to say so.
Which is a darn shame, because I happen to think you make good sense.
quote:
I ask because I saw a friend of mine have a 3 man LLC go down the tubes...because they didn't think through these issues. |
I was in an 4 man start-up a couple of years ago, and we went through some _amazing_ pains (which ultimately included kicking one guy out and paying some serious cash for the priviledge) becuase we didn't do our contract homework up front like smart people. It worked out all right though, since it was in the years of flowing milk and honey so we got some investors to foot the bill and made out jolly good in the end. Vel does not have that luxury in the current market, so I'll just say that I agree entirely with you - Vel, you should too think more 'bout this now.
If I may be so bold as to suggest an outline of a contract that tries to define the shares when effort and work to reach them is uncertain, I'd like to mention the one I have with my current company; we each have guaranteed shares and a common share that we'll divide up among us when the work is done according to some easy to measure, written in stone criteria. And let me tell you I sleep a lot easier by night knowing it too. Of course, all of us having experience in our particular field and a rough common feeling for what's actually reasonable helped no end here, and you'll find this a lot harder with your crew, I'm sure.
But not even close to as hard as it will be, I think, a year from now.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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Back from a break in the whole cleaning exercise (sigh...I really wish I could train my cats to cover stuff like laundry and garbage....ah well....*G*)!
Good points here, all 'round. GP and Moominparatrooper have collectively raised an issue that can indeed become a showstopper if it's not handled with care.
I think though, that part of handling it with care....part of handling it responsibly, is to make it transparent to the gamer. While it's true that I am striving to make our company and our effort here incredibly accessible and responsive to any and all who are interested in kicking ideas around the public forum, I must agree with Ramses that there are some issues which are better suited to that public debate than others. This is probably not one of them.
Nonetheless, if the interest in the nuts and bolts of the operation stem from a desire to invest or sign on, shoot me an e-mail and we can delve more deeply into those topics.
As it is, I can say that the current bent of the discussion has been fully digested, and my brain is currently chewing on it and comparing it to what we've currently got in place, to see if there's an improvement or change needed, and I will continue to rely on you guys to keep me on my toes!
-=Vel=-
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moomin
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Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by xRamsesx
GP, it seems to me that you're asking a lot of questions about our buisiness practices and implementation rather than the game concept and ideas which is what this forum is supposed to be about. How we do things I think should really be something that we as a group privately decide on. We've been working together for 4 months now and have come to an understanding on how we'll be doing things privately amongst ourselves.
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Ramses, I didn't know, nor did GP, I believe, that this forum was intended only for discussion of CB the game. Since you're trying something new and interesting here with your highly unorthodox developement model - which, if I may say so, has featured prominently in the discussions about this game, many of which were initiated by you guys, I certainly thought musing on this subject were cool. While I agree that some of the questions here have been more intrusive than necessary merited, you can always say no, no?
If you feel you don't need or want any kind of talk here about this I'll be happy to curtail my interest to the game machanics - I've already discussed some of that with Vel and it is, after all the soul of your effort. Still, you're doing a new and interesting thing with the way you organize as well, and unless you tell us to mind our own business I, for one, will certainly continue to bug you about it.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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One of the hallmarks of our efforts to date has been the spirit of openness and (often rampant, which is a very good thing!) creativity that gets generated any time you put a number of passionate, creative people in a room, be it a real room or a virtual one.
It's true that, as this forum matures and gets more fully fleshed out, the vast majority of the stuff posted here will be game mechanics oriented, and open discussions on new ideas or how to integrate various pieces of the puzzle together to make a cohesive whole.
These forums here at 'poly are our primary means reaching out to, and talking with fans of the game and those interested in the project. Since we really are taking a dramatically different approach to design and implementation, there's bound to be a certain curiosity about the particulars, and that's okay too....after all, they really are interwoven to the point that it is sometimes difficult to tell where one stops and the other starts. Having said that, I think that pretty much any question or concern is "fair game" to be raised here, so long as it's understood that we might, from time to time, feel the need to offer up a "no comment" about something if it strays onto a topic that's just not particularly well suited to public debate.
And don't worry, "no comment" isn't about to become our mantra!
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
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Total agreement from me!
And never once did it cross my mind that anybody involved with us or talking about the various aspects of what we're doing is out to sabatoge or steal from us....that has never entered into my thinking (for a number of different reasons, actually).
What I see here though, is a group of people who started out as strangers....who came together around an idea....poured themselves into it to make it their own....really leave their mark on it and in it, and somewhere along the way, became friends to boot!
Now that, coupled with the sharp eyes we have both actively involved in the project, and from those who are interested and watching....taken together that gives us a powerful advantage. It is my opinion that if we heed the wise words of advice offered freely by the folks participating in our discussion, we'll go a long way in avoiding many of the more common pitfalls that spell the end of efforts like ours, and maybe even safeguard ourselves against some of the less common ones. That's pretty valuable protection, and I think it is a credit to our sheer openness that we can rely on that sort of thing. I wouldn't change that for the world.
So yes! By all means, keep at it! Just because something might not be easy to hear, doesn't mean its a bad thing to hear....keep at it and we'll do our level best to stay on the straight and narrow path to see this thing through to completion...
-=Vel=-
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Capt Dizle
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Okay. Vel, tell me who you want to take out a contract on and I'll call Mongoose and we will rub'em out for you.
Hmm, we'll have to have 5% of the net per body. I don't need it in writing.
GP I'll do for free.
jt
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ravagon
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Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:19
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quote:
Originally posted by alva848
You 'd be surprised how many company's started off as
idealistic adventures to change the world and make it a better place 
Then somewhere on the line............... |
Very true - but then those are the ones you tend to hear about.
In this case I would tend to borrow that old axiom - If you look hard enough you will find something - whether its there or not.
If people start divvying up the profits before such, in fact, exist, poking holes in contractual clauses and looking for loopholes they bring about an atmosphere that makes it much more likely to fail.
This being an entirely voluntary process, taking place in the participants spare time, and with what resources they can scrape together, is pretty much dependent on the very lack of such a mindset.
Should those involved find out the hard way that notions of "fair", "equitable" and "ownership" just don't work out - then well and good - they can take it as a life lesson, at relatively low cost, and move on.
If OTOH things do work out as they're planning, they'll be so much the better off for relying on each other and in a position to build on what they've created.
That came out much more hand-wavy than I'd intended but I'm sure you get the idea...
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05-05-2002 11:43
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