06-05-2002 02:02									#1
	The RMG! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

One of the disappointments of recent 4X TB games has been the lack of an RMG, that is a random map generator. HoMM4 came without, and so will AoW2. No matter how many scenarios you include, in my book there's just no substitute for a good random map generator - without it, 4X quickly degenerates to 3X as you learn the maps by heart and the eXplore element goes away. EU is an exemple of a game where this was particularly noticeable, although they had random elements thrown in as well - trade centers and such.

Much as with AI, the key to being able to generate good random maps is to design the game for it from scratch. MOM maps, for instance, were never unplayable because you could always expand although there were good starts and lousy starts. The RMG provided with the Armageddon's Blade expansion for HoMM3, on the other hand, would often churn out an unplayable map, since it was entirely possible to be stuck in your starting area without any means of leaving.

Have you CBeans given any thought to this issue, and, if so, what are the current particulars?

	06-05-2002 02:21									#2
	Put an end to popups!

I like the nickname, btw! CBeans...coolio!

Yep...random map generation is something that's come up more than once, and will no doubt, surface again as we draw nearer to finalizing the freebie version of the game. The quick answer to that question is that the interest is most definately there for a random map generator, and it's an idea that has been kicked around more than once by the team....not sure if it'll make the cut into the free release or not, but it's definately slated for an appearance at some point in the process!

Hand in hand with that (and another thing that will be making its first appearance in the commercial release) will be a suite of editing tools, including the ability to create your own maps. This isn't QUITE the same as a random map generator, that's true, but it does open the door to mod-making (we've not worked out all the particulars here, but this thread could very well dovetail in that direction), but the hope is to make moddable as many of the various components to the commercially released game as possible (we were even kicking around the idea of a moddable AI at one point, but those discussions were put on hold as the code group began digging their heels in to get v0.1 out the door).

To that end, I raise the question: What sorts of moddabilitiy options would you like to see made available in a game of this sort?

Offhand, I can tell you that we've discussed the following areas:

Tech Tree (no adding of new research areas, but allowing for new techs to be added IN those areas....another possibility is that for the commercial release, we may make a "dummy branch" of the tech tree with nothing in it to allow for customization later on)

Fate Engine: Allowing new events to be put into the system...should allow for some AWESOME modding ability there...the ability to slant the game in a particular direction via events

Fate Probability: the ability to control down at the player level the probability of getting fate events....that could be coolimus maximus

Faction Editor: The abillty to create new groups, and assign them a variety of bonuses and abilities (probably on a point-based system)

Unit Editor (an idea that cropped up very briefly on our old forum was the question of whether or not a design workshop for new units would be a welcome addition...it is something I would personally have an interest in seeing)

Influence of the Church: Religion can play a VERY important part in your game, and the abililty to control at the mod-level exactly how many influence points it takes to stall an enemy attack could add LOTS of interesting flavor to the game

New Spells and Magic: ? This might be difficult to do....don't know for sure, but if it IS possible, that would really rock! The ability to include a wholly new effect into the game structure. Might be a bear to code tho.

New structures and provincial improvements - to include the abilty to modify existing ones

Government types - not present in the free release, but something that is planned

New citizen archetypes - another KEY component in modding

Others???

-=Vel=-

	06-05-2002 03:02									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I just thought I'd mention here that since the free version is going to be open-source, and since the coding team appear to be making a lot of stuff database driven instead of making things hard-coded, then the free version should be totally 100% moddable to anybody with knowledge of Java, some imagination and some time on their hands.

The commecial version should have as many moddable options as we can fit in ... the heart and soul of many games, such as CtP2 and Civ2 (and even non-TBS games, Half-Life being the most obvious example) is in the mod community.
We can even steal ... erm ... I mean 'take inspiration from' the best of those ideas for any expansion pack/sequel further down the line.

	06-05-2002 03:04									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

d'oh! Good point, Stoo! Forgot to mention that!

-=Vel=-

	06-05-2002 09:08									#5
	Tired of ads?

Nice ideas so far about customization...

I really would love to see a design workshop. Given the nature of the combat engine, specialization of units would be cool.

Fate Engine, Fate Probability and new citizen archetypes are all essential things for customization. The first two are even more necessary for the creation of true scenarios.

And yes, a random map generator is absolutely compulsory. But, since the game depicts a specific fantasy world (Candle'Bre), then I think that a predesigned map would be good (think of the Map of Planet in SMAC).

	06-05-2002 10:01									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

KISS: keep it simple stupid!

Do you really have the capacity to put a random map feature into this demonstration version of the game?

Last edited by TCO on 06-05-2002 at 11:49

	06-05-2002 10:11									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Alexnm I really would love to see a design workshop. Given the nature of the combat engine, specialization of units would be cool. And yes, a random map generator is absolutely compulsory.

I think somebody nyxed these ideas a while ago as being too AI intensive or somesuch - at least in the initial release.
Admittedly though it would be a great idea to leave them open for implementation at a later stage or for the retail version ...

	06-05-2002 11:58									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Could someone explain this 4x and 3x stuff?

Player designed maps are usually better than randomly generated maps. For example, I hated the RMG in Heroes III...I just downloaded kickass maps instead.

	06-05-2002 12:04									#9
	Got spare money?

4x = explore, expand, exploit, exterminate.

Basically just lingo for particular classes of strategy games.

3x = above minus one of them (the explore bit in this case).

	06-05-2002 14:47									#10
	KISS my ass ;) Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by GP Do you really have the capacity to put a random map feature into this demonstration version of the game?

very possibly not, no ... but a decision on that will have to made several months down the line (it's not a #1 priority, nor should it be at this stage).

likewise the Design Workshop, the implementation of which almost exclusively depends on the strength of the AI. If the computer doesn't use it properly then a design workshop is going to hurt the game more than it helps it.
Some very interesting AI discussions are going on at the moment in our Staff Forum, but since v0.1 isn't going to have computer-controlled factions then the coders have some time to sort this out. I'm sure they'll do a fine job.

	06-05-2002 16:17									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Triped Player designed maps are usually better than randomly generated maps. For example, I hated the RMG in Heroes III...I just downloaded kickass maps instead.

Player designed maps can be outstanding, brilliant and breathtaking. Most of them, however, are utter, eh, disgestive results. A large community with good established points of map distribution and evaluation can mitigate the problem somewhat (like for instance, the outstanding Astralwizard web site did for HoMM3) but it's a rare game that gets that treatment and if you look at AoW, for instance, finiding decent maps among all the manure that was put up on all the abandoned AoW sites is far more work than pleasure. The demise of Astralwizard and the problems with the HoMM4 editor has resulted in a serious lack of good maps for HoMM4, with the people on the HoMM mapmaking list in uproar over all the problems and what not. And avid HoMM players are already complaining they know all the maps NWC delivered by heart - where's the beef? A RMG would have rendered these issues moot.

And then there's that other issue. When playing a manmade map, no matter how good, you're actually engaging in reading the designers intentions at least as much as playing out your own strategy. This element is simply not an issue with random maps.

And finally, yes, HoMM3 random maps were sometimes bad. It's hard to imagine how they could be otherwise, given that the RMG was tacked on in an expansion as opposed to designing the game toward random maps from scratch. But could you imagine playing Civ, SMAC, MOM or MOO without random maps?

	07-05-2002 04:27									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well said, trooper! Yep...it's Vel, grogged out of his mind and up, despite enough painkillers to bring an elephant down....my back doesn't flare up too often, but when it does, it's a doozy! (that's what too much hard livin' will do to a fellow! LOL).

In any case though, your points are quite well taken and well considered, and I see the random map generator being among the first tasks we work on for the commercial release. That will, as you pointed out, dramatically increase the replay value of the game, and there's a whole HOST of 4x games (as you mentioned) that would not have had anywhere NEAR the longevity, if not for the RMG!

-=Vel=-