07-05-2002 23:51									#1
	Thoughts on the slower research Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

When 1.21f came out and they slowed down the research rates, decreased AI tech trading, and increased costs of the Middle Ages techs, I was happy. Then I played a game.

I'm the Chinese, on a medium-sized 8-player single continent. Regent difficulty. The continent is shaped like a bow tie, and I'm in the center. By luck and mass colonization I have the best and most land in the game, so I'm the first one to the middle ages even with AI tech trading.

So, I build Riders. Now, up to this point I had only had a brief border skirmish with the Zulus, nothing big. My first few Riders trigger a Golden Age, and for 20 turns I just churn out Riders from all my major cities. (I'm a Republic by this point, too). By the time I cross the Zulu border I have 20 Riders, and by the time I finish them off I have 30-40.

I had a Conquest victory before the end of the Middle Ages. I had beaten EVERYONE. No civ reached Gunpowder other than me (or if they did, they didn't have the Saltpeter), and only one civ made Knights (the Russians, the last civ remaining). This wasn't some sort of continuous sweep, either; I fought the Zulus to my west, then the Americans to the right, then the English to the left, then a while with no war, then the Romans to the right, and so on going back and forth (and it took 5 turns to move the army across my empire).

It was just too easy. Without the technology for the defensive units to counter, my offensives went extremely quickly. Also, I had a dozen Great Leaders, so I was able to build all the Wonders of the age.

Has anyone else had this problem?

	08-05-2002 00:12									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I had the problem of AI tech stagnation.

Of course I went into the editor and made AI trading rates 100 to 100 (IOW they treat each other the same as they treat me-supposedly).

I got way ahead in the tech race but I think this is due to the fact that I go for techs like literature and education and immediatly build lots of libraries and universities while the AI goes more for the military techs and churns out units.
1 on 1 you will always out tech the AI.
They seemed real reluctant to trade techs to one another though. I just dont get it.
Guess Ill have to change the trade rate to 100 to 120.

Funny thing though-- the ai still asked for outragious compensation from me for luxeries yet they all traded luxs to one another like crazy.

Again- I dont get it

	08-05-2002 00:47									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, the AI looks at how many happy faces it will receive from the luxury you give them and how many happy faces you will get from the luxury you're getting. If you're getting a 3rd luxury from the AI, you can get 2 happy faces per city from it, whereas the AI may only get 1 happy face per city if he's on his 2nd luxury. so, the AI knows how many luxuries you have and how many happy faces you get from the trade.

	08-05-2002 00:48									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Of course, that is a theory.

	08-05-2002 02:13									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I actually wish I could have such a game, I usually find the opposite.

	08-05-2002 06:41									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I had the opposite...normally I am well ahead in tech, but in the first game I played with the new patch I was about the same as the AI civs (slightly ahead). Might have something to do with tactics, or the AI grapped more territory than normal.

	08-05-2002 21:55									#7
	Remove this text

My first 1.21 game was just the opposite. 8 civs, I am 3rd on the histograph for most of the way thus far - but last in techs until ~400ad. Then I catch up only because victory in a war netted me 3 techs in the peace negotiation and enough gold to buy another from someone else.

As the romans, I started building my first musket after all my neighbors had riflemen camped in their cities. I had managed to buy metallurgy (and thus cannon), allowing my legions to win the war.

The AIs all demanded ~14g/turn for techs, then sold them to my french neighbors for ~20g total. (I negotiate with them every turn, as we share a very long border) One turn, they have a few coins and one tech I lack; the next, they have no gold and four techs that I lack.

I skipped 1.17 because this is what people grumbled about. Is this actually an improvement? If so, I'm glad I skipped that patch.

	09-05-2002 02:04									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Slower research??? I experienced also the opposite in my first 1.21 game where everybody ( the AI and me ) reached the ages in record time: they may have increased some medieval techs, but I'm sure that the default tech costs of Ancient, most of late Industrial and Modern are quite the same if not decreased. The tech trading between AI may be a bit less aggressive, but the 2-3 strongest AI have ALWAYS the same techs ahead ( instantaneous exchange ) - the difference now is that they no longer exchange with the weakest AI. Next to 1.17 it's easier then to get ahead if you're an early warmonger and extort tech to your enemy when making peace if you're the last in the tech race, otherwise if you're a peaceful builder and awaiting for a grand world war you won't see too much a difference besides getting techs a bit sooner all things being equal ( same map size, number of civs, same level ).

All in all the default tech rates seem to be quite OK for me at Monarch - but considering how much often the AIs are at war ( forcing them to switch to Monarchy/Communism ), I just can't imagine how fast we'll be getting techs if we were all able to stay with Democracy.