08-05-2002 07:05									#1
	Trading Absurdity Put an end to popups!

Sublimely ridiculous:

I am totally dominant, and Greece is getting blow to smithereens by Egypt (all of 2 cities left).

Somehow, they got Rocketry before me (imagine that).

I asked what Alexander would want, and he said not possible.

For the hell of it, I offered:
Iron
Saltpeter
Coal
Oil
Rubber
Wines
Furs
Dyes
Incense

He still said no!!

	08-05-2002 07:09									#2
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That kind of stuff happens to me a LOT, and it always seems like it's the Japanese that do it to me.

	08-05-2002 07:10									#3
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I think their might now be a general "pissed off" quotient for each AI civ.

	08-05-2002 07:16									#4
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I think if they are furious, it is really hard to do trades, sometimes you just have to "grease the wheels" to relax them.

	08-05-2002 07:21									#5
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That kind of crap happens because the braindead AI holds stupid grudges for millennia over even minor stuff, and sometimes things you never did!

If it doesn't like you it is so spiteful it would refuse fabulous deals that could really help it.

Duh.

	08-05-2002 07:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I think if they are furious, it is really hard to do trades, sometimes you just have to "grease the wheels" to relax them.

i ONCE tried to appease an AI. then they used the saltpeter i gave them to build cavalry and attack.

sure, my infantry put them in their place, but it's the principle of the thing. i never appease anymore. you're mad at me? f*ck you you're dead.

	08-05-2002 07:29									#7
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About all I'll ever do to appease them, is luxuries or money. I only give resources if they are on another continent and losing a war.

	08-05-2002 07:41									#8
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Keep in mind that those trade deals you offered it would close as soon as war started, while you would keep the tech forever. Only an idiot would give a tech to a bigger, more powerful opponent that it was at odds with for some goods that could easily be taken away next turn if you decide to invade. The offer was obviously bad, no human player would have taken it and it just goes to show that the AI has some merit in the fact that it didn't take the deal.

	08-05-2002 09:42									#9
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I would have to say that the AI trading calculations are still some of the weakest examples of the coding in the entire game.

Example in point: I am located on a continent shaped like a figure eight and control one end (or one lobe of the figure eight). The AI controls the other end of the figure eight. The AI civ has one town founded on the tip of my end of the figure eight and I have two towns that I just captured from a third civ and these towns are on the AIs end of the figure eight. The AI is polite to me and I offer to trade the two cities on his end for the one city on my end. He is in AWE of my culture and yet refuses the trade. I added 200 gold lump sum to the deal and still got refused.

The next turn the lone city that the AI had on my end of the continent flipped to me and I was stuck with two corrupt towns on his end of the world. So basically he got nothing.

In other cases, I have tried to trade an AI for a remote town that was about to be attacked by SoD of 20 or 30 attackers from a third or fourth CIV only to have the AI tell me a deal was not possible.

Sometimes I have to go on the warpath and kill them off just to prevent the remnants of their civ from falling into the wrong hands.

	08-05-2002 10:24									#10
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Due to exploits that cropped up in the game, the Firaxis team made it so that the AI will only even consider giving cities in exchange for peace treaties. While I do feel that it's a good thing to close the loopholes they did (sell a city, re-take it, sell it again was one of the general tricks they were trying to stop, I think), I really wish they hadn't done so at the expense of legitimate city trades. It's clear that the city-valuation code is still there, because if you're trying to get an AI civ to cede some territory for a peace deal you'll often see different cities being valued different amounts (resources, distance from capital, and size seem to be major factors), and if you give a city as a gift it will still register as a gift of a certain value.

	08-05-2002 12:01									#11
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Thanks Random Passerby... interesting info. I, too, have suffered from city trade refusal when offering mutually beneficial exchange with other civs. Case in point: risking all out civ war (thanks to MPP's) to take three cities from the French (who just took them 2 turns ago from the Germans). I then offered these three cities to the Romans - which were located one turn away from the Roman coast - in exchange for one city that they had captured from the Aztecs on my cultural borders - five turns away from their empire! No dice and no amount of money, tech or resource thrown in could sweeten the deal. Now, I know why. Next time I will attack the sorry Roman empire and if the peace treaty doesn't do the trick - So what! I'll just take the damn thing from them.

	08-05-2002 12:18									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It would seem to me that the simple fix to this problem, which would close that loophole whilst still allowing legitimate trade, would be either:

a) have the A.I give proper consideration to a city-city trade 1st time, but have it almost ALWAYS reject a second trade of that same city (except for a peace deal).

b) once you have traded a city, have a lag of about 10 turns before you can re-trade that same city.

Possibly a combination of the 2 might be even better!!

Anyway, just my $0.02c worth.

The_Aussie_Lurker.

	08-05-2002 12:19									#13
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I think the city trading was one of the interesting aspects of the game. Then they completely killed it to stop an exploit. I'd have prefered if they had left it for the players capable of self control.

Close one loophole, another opens up. Some have discovered how to periodically shake down the AI through renegotiation of peace.

	08-05-2002 12:23									#14
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A better way to fix it would be that the AI should never agree to any trade involving a city with any power who it had been in a war with within the last 100 or 200 turns. Except for peace terms that is.

The refusal to trade territory with peaceful builders, or with allies is not necessarily a step in the right direction.

Another thing. The AI should refuse to renegotiate peace after once. I can see once. Repeatedly? If you want us, come and get us!

	08-05-2002 12:48									#15
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As far as I know.

Iron lacking AI pays a lot of money for it.

But I've never seen AI bothered with lack of Oil or Rubber.

These prices should be SCALED with cicrumstances.

Like:
-in war == I realy need that Oil
-Having 30% luxury == I realty need that Luxury resource

	08-05-2002 13:11									#16
	Re: Trading Absurdity Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Theseus For the hell of it, I offered: Iron Saltpeter Coal Oil Rubber Wines Furs Dyes Incense He still said no!!

The value of luxuries, converted to gold (which is the base of all calculations), increases with population. If Alex has only 2 cities left, he has less citizens to supply and your ressources are worth much less than if you offer the same to a civ with 20 cities. That's how the trade system works. You can use it to your benefit. Offer your scarce luxuries and ressources to the civs with more citizens and renegotiate the deals after 20 turns if you feel, that his/her # of citizens increased.

	08-05-2002 13:12									#17
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Theseus :
Maybe you have a bad reputation, and are known to break treaties (it happened to me for a whole game after an ancient sneak attack). Then I suppose the AI doesn't give any trust to you when you trade on a per-turn basis... I think it fears you cancel the treaty one or two turns after.
OR : the AI now doesn't understand it's possible to exchange lump for per-turn.

	08-05-2002 13:28									#18
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I have to agree Spiffor. In my current game an AI is willing to trade me Replaceable Parts for Spices, Wines and 25 gpt.

I have not broken any agreements. I have not declared war on any AI while I had forces inside it's territory. I am Mister Clean.

But thay all still show they are furious with me. It's the first game I've ever seen that. They ask for ROP and MPP. I say OK to ROP. They still hate me??? Oh well. It hasn't effected the diplomacy that I have noticed.

	08-05-2002 17:34									#19
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I agree with cyclotron7 (and others voicing the same opinion): refusing the offer in this case is the "right play" by the AI.

If this were multiplayer, and I had two cities left, I would never give away an advanced tech (Rocketry being the most important tech in the Modern age...) for anything short of a batallion ready to dig me out of the hole I'm in.

The fact that these "extreme trades" seem ludicrous is that the human player expects the AI to give them something every time an offer is made. The fact that the AI is hard-coded (actually, I don't know if this is a fact or not) to reject any trade under certain circumstances is a commendable game feature.

The fact that that AI is sometimes unwilling to give in is not "stupid", it is simply inconvenient for the human player.


Dominae

	08-05-2002 18:19									#20
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I must disagree with cyclotron7. The AI isn't that smart. I just had a game, where I saw an American sneak attack force approach, at the end of the ancient age. It was too late to block them, and I knew that it would be useless to ask him to leave. So I contacted Abe and bought Monarchy for 25 gold per turn. He attacked the next turn anyway, and I had the tech practically for free.

	08-05-2002 19:04									#21
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i can almost always get techs if i just offer gold. that's the only sure-fire way i've experienced of getting techs. you just have to have a lot of dough. *shrug*

	08-05-2002 21:07									#22
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I'm not trying to defend the AI in general, just the AI's play in Theseus' example. There's simply no reason for a 2-city civ to want 8 luxuries and a couple of outdated strategic resources ("No, we don't need any Iron; our Infantry wouldn't know what to do with it anyway..."). This is especially true if the human player is gaining a permanent asset (Rocketry), while the AI will probably be wiped out the next turn anyway.

Edit: It seems I've bent Theseus' example to support my argument. However, I think my point is still valid.

Dominae

	08-05-2002 21:31									#23
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If youi can't reach rocketry yet, you wouldn't be able to get it. You have to have the prerequistes first to enamble to trade it.

Davor

	08-05-2002 21:42									#24
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Not to bother you with the gory details of a game, I had. here are the highlights:

Huge map, 9 civs

Never had even a battle with another civ, only barbarians.

traded tech freely

shared resources

built up inferior civs with generous gifts

All civs in the game are Polite to me

going for cultural victory

"compared to these guys we have a stong military"

it's 1864

The Romans, who share a border, I had been sheparding through through the game: We want a MPP, or die!

Sure, whatever. I give it to them.

next turn: Romans DECLARE WAR!!!

next turn: 15 of 35-40 Romans cities fall to me, Rome won't negotiate peace (Heck I don't even want their cities)

Next turn: 7 cities, refuse to acknowledge envoy

next tuen: 7 cities, refuse to acknowledge envoy

next turn: all remaining cities but one, refuse to ackowledge envoy (I'm a democracy so I'm starting to get war wariness)

next turn: Romans are dead, solves my war wariness problem


Q: On what scale of logic does it make any sense for the Romans to attack me. I have been their patron through the entire game. I thought someone else had instigated them, but everyone is polite and as I said I never even fought anybody. I had 2x the cities as the romans and 175+ cavalry, the romans had nothing comparable.

What's up with that?

	08-05-2002 21:54									#25
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In "realistic" terms, you could explain the AI's behaviour as "wanting a share of the pie". Although it goes against most sound strategy, it's sometimes difficult not to target the most successful/wealthy civ around before the weaker ones.

In the Industrial era, in order to eventually ensure a nice lead in the space race, I'll often attack the strongest AI civ (and try to bring as many other civs into the battle as possible, via MPPs) just to force them to focus on military rather than science and economy. Usually I'll end up with an extra couple of luxuries, some nice peace negotation spoils, and a few nice new cities. These wouldn't be present if I simply beat up on the poor Zulus.

It's pretty clear I'll do this whether the strongest AI has been nice to me over the ages or not; strategically it's a good decision, so I stab them in the back (yeah, I've got no honour...it wins me games).

The real problem in your example is that the Romans failed in their grab for power (which, incidentally, does happen in real life). Also, I must concur that there is a problem with the AI not knowing when to stop it's warmongering ways; as the Romans were getting beaten pretty handily, they should have realised peace was the better option at some point.


Dominae

	08-05-2002 22:10									#26
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I guess they had the best chance going for me, since i was closest but sheesh!

I think Civ III is programmed so that wars have to go on for 5 turns or something before they can end. In which case, Rome might have wanted to take that into consideration.

I really wanted to see if I could go a whole game without fighting anybody (you outta get extra points on your score for that), but I guess it goes to show there's no prize among nations for being the nicest.

	08-05-2002 22:13									#27
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I was playing a game the other day as the Persians, 7 civs, standard map, two continents.

i'd conquered the zulu empire so i had about twice the territory of anyone else. my culture was shooting up, and was twice the size of my neareast opposition.

near the end of the game i'd siezed most of the strategic and luxury resources, but the Germans and the English had their little out of hte way continent nicely contained, so i tried to trade.

Mr Bismarck wanted 3 luxuries, and more than a thousand gold pieces for ONE of his damn luxuries.

so I ICMB'd his butt after launching my spaceship.

How do you like THAT trade Otto?

	08-05-2002 22:15									#28
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Didn't you notice yet, that the AI is willing to pay the more for your luxuries, the more citizens it has. That's the reason, why you often can negotiate better prices for your luxury sales every 20 turns, because the AI civ has grown. This has nothing to do with "it can afford more", a civ with less citizens can be rich too. The value of resources/luxuries grows with the number of citizens you can supply/make happy.

Now back to Alex: Theseus' Japan is much bigger than Alexanders Greece. For Greece, resources and luxuries aren't worth much converted to gold, because he has not much citizens. Theseus has to pay Alexander's prices, and, because Alex doesn't evaluate luxuries very high due to less citizens, Theseus failed. If Greece was the same size like Theseus, I'm sure 2 luxuries or 1 resource would be enough.

For the AI, prices depend on the number of citizens. I noticed this many times in my games.

	08-05-2002 22:21									#29
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ahenobarb, you can go the whole game without fighting anybody. I've done it (especially easy in an OCC game...I think they dislike you if you're militarily superior to them). However, there is not sure-fire way to play an entirely peaceful game in Civ3, which is a good thing.

Didn't you know? AI civs that declare war on you out of nowhere is part of the fun! Seriously now, peaceful games should be a rarity because they're boring; the AI is designed around this fact.


Dominae

	08-05-2002 22:23									#30
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What Sir Ralph says makes a lot of sense. Perhaps the best explanation of what was going on in Theseus' game.


Dominae