08-05-2002 09:36									#1
	About culture flipping and other whines... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Don't mean to step on any toes here, but I have read a lot of posts that directly or indirectly whine about culture flipping in CIV III. Upon first reading about CIV III, I was excited about the new aspects (like culture and strategic resources...) and anxious to see how they "changed" gameplay. After the first game and a taste of how these things happened/worked I began to develop strategies that USED them to MY advantage. Sure, sometimes they "upset" your careful planning and yes, the AI can seem absurd in it's implementation of them, but just like some of the aspects and absurdities of CIV II... strategies can be built around them.

I am aware of culture flipping in the game and plan for it, use it to gain territory and creep in on my neighboring civs without any "incidents" that may trigger war. I can understand complaining about true bugs that prevent expected gameplay, but the whole idea here is strategy! I think that the addition of these other aspects contribute to the interest of the game (effective strategies for CIV II had become worn like an old shoe and rendered it less interesting than it once was). I look to this community for insights to gameplay and strategy - and the occasional answer to problems. And for the most part the others here are a great bunch who deliver, thanks. As for the whiners... guess it goes with the territory in forums. (Hey, wait a minute... was this a whine????)

Never take yourself too seriously... nobody else does!

	08-05-2002 09:53									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Welcome to the side of reason. We are glad you joined us.

	08-05-2002 09:54									#3
	Tired of ads?

My guess is you won't get too much play on some stations, but you make an excellent point. The things that so annoy can be overcome, and the things that seem so unfair can be turned to your advantage. It's a matter of learning and adapting to a new game.

Can it be better? Yes. Is it fundamentally flawed? No.

	08-05-2002 09:55									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

When you go to this extent to defend something, it is not a whine. It is an apology. This makes you an apologist.

BTW, apology not accepted. I spent one summer housepainting long ago, and I learned to use the weather to my benefit. Paint here in the morning and there in the afternoon. It was a strategy, but pal, watching paint dry ain't fun and neither is playing Civ3.

	08-05-2002 10:01									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Says a guy who can't master the thing? When was the last time you played jimmy?

	08-05-2002 10:20									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick When you go to this extent to defend something, it is not a whine. It is an apology. This makes you an apologist.

What extent is he going to? Writing one thread topic? You go to far more of an extent than he does... not to mention the arch-complainer Coracle.

Not everybody who doesn't agree with you is an apologist. I make no statements worshipping Firaxis, and I don't apologize for the flaws in Civ3, but at least I'm not as bitter as you.

	08-05-2002 10:25									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I haven't played since 1.17f. Doesn't matter, we all know its still the same. I play more advanced games, like SMAC PBEM, you know, multiplay?

Multiplay, as in multiple humans. As in, a real game. Quality as opposed to marketing hype. As in, a thinking man's game opposed to a game reduced not just to lowest common human denominator but dumbed down even more, to the level of a witless machine..

10011011 00111111 00001000 11101001 11011010

	08-05-2002 10:56									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes. Another MP player heard from again, and again, and again...

Boy are you going to feel stupid when you're playing Civ3 MP. Or at least you should. Don't worry, I'll remind you.

	08-05-2002 11:03									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I expected to take some flak for this one... I have built walls, coastal fortress and missle batteries along with plenty of defensive units, go ahead, let it rip.

quote: Original posted by jimmytrick - When you go to this extent to defend something, it is not a whine. It is an apology. This makes you an apologist.

From websters dictonary:

Apology - n. - 1.) An expression of regret for an offense or fault.
2.) A formal defense : justification

Defend - v. - 1.) To protect from danger, attack or harm.
2.) to maintain or support : justify

Well, it seems you are correct. To apologize for something is is type of defense and it seems that both can be considered an attempt at justification. However, upon re-reading my original post I do not seem to see the same things you see. I am certainly not trying to protect anyone or anything from danger or harm and I offer no regret for any offense or fault. I believe my comments indicate that I see no "fault" with the aspects of CIV III - so why would I offer any regret for them?

quote: Quote from my original post - Sure, sometimes they "upset" your careful planning and yes, the AI can seem absurd in it's implementation of them...

I suppose this may seem like an admission of some kind of "fault" with CIV III, but it is a summarization of the basic type of complaint to which I am refering. It is an opinion and an expression of frustrations but in no way represents a declaration of fault. On the contrary, if the entire post is put into context, I seem to be saying that there is essentially nothing "wrong" with CIV III. As is so concisely stated by notyoueither in an earlier reply:

quote: Can it be better? Yes. Is it fundamentally flawed? No.

Neither am I trying to justify anything. I am not trying to validate any aspect of the game as OK so you should like it. I am only saying that strategies can be developed that utilize these aspects.

From websters dictonary:

Comment - n. - 1.) A statement of observation, analysis or criticisim.
2.) An expression of opinion.

If you look carefully at the majority of phrases in the original post you will see that they begin with "I" and are followed by some observation, analysis or criticisim. Hmmmm? Sounds more like a commentary than a defense or apology to me. I thought about "Comment: About culture flipping and other whines..." as the original subject line, but figured that it was apparent that this was a commentary. I suppose that's what I get for assuming.

My intention was to comment on the multitude of complaints about this aspect or that aspect being "stupid". Ok, fine. That is your opinion, but I prefer to read posts that comment on a frustration and then ask for options, strategies or obsevations that can overcome this frustration. If the game is that "stupid" or "frustrating" that you do not enjoy playing it... stop playing. It's that simple. Those of us that find it a challenge and wish to exchange information about our ideas and discoveries will continue to use this forum for this purpose and do our best to move on from the useless whines that offer no substance.

BTW - no apologies given.

	08-05-2002 12:51									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Only thing that bother me is that you can lose 20 or more units if city flips.
(personally I think that miltary factor needs to be more important)

	08-05-2002 13:06									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Only thing that bother me is that you can lose 20 or more units if city flips.

Well, yes that would be a pisser. But I try to keep my cultural level high and have never experienced a flip-back of a heavily garrisoned city like that. I have lost some weaker cities that I had just captured or recently flipped, but no big deal there. I am sure that sooner or later I will get my due share of "unfair" treatment from the AI... but it ain't gonna stop me from whooping major butt.

	08-05-2002 13:23									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It gives a bit of strange level of uncertanty.

Like:
1) put more units too prevent flips
2) put less units so you'll lose less in flip

too strange for my taste

	08-05-2002 13:28									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What would I like:

When filp starts you lose several units (3-5) in that turn and are informed that city is rebelling.

You'll lose more troops every new turn exept:
1) if you move troops them out
2) you put one nice BIG army which will stop rebellion

P.S.
New owner of city that flips should get SEVERAL free units as defenders (depedning from size of city)

	08-05-2002 13:30									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I didn't mean to imply that unit strength of the city had anything to do with it. What I was saying is that my culture is usually so high that I don't experience a flip of my cities. Therefore, placing lot's of units in one only to have it flip is not a fear of mine. Any city that has flipped is one that is far from my capital (captured or flipped over to me) and I have not been building it up to begin with.

Make more sense?

	08-05-2002 13:36									#15
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quote: Originally posted by player1 What would I like: When filp starts you lose several units (3-5) in that turn and are informed that city is rebelling. You'll lose more troops every new turn exept: 1) if you move troops them out 2) you put one nice BIG army which will stop rebellion

I strenuously agree with this. It would save many pixelated lives while I conquer my way across a map.

The population might also decrease as a result of martial law and drastic measures. Make the flip a mini game of it's own.

As it is the designers have ensured that I 'ethnically cleanse' my way across the map. Eeeeewwwwww. My rule should be benevolent dag-namit.

Soren? Soren...

	08-05-2002 13:42									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

yup, starvation and mass shootings should do the trick

	08-05-2002 14:15									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No! They should see the light of my benevolence.

I am here to free my people.

I love my people.

Puullll!

	08-05-2002 15:36									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Starve 'em

	08-05-2002 23:58									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick As in, a thinking man's game opposed to a game reduced not just to lowest common human denominator but dumbed down even more, to the level of a witless machine..

Yes, like the witless machine that beat the world chess champion at his own game...

	09-05-2002 01:55									#20
	Would anyone like some cheddar? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To go with your whine of course

I have only experienced cities flipping to join my civ. I have never had a conquered city flip back to the original culture. I don't know why this is. Maybe since I don't play above monarch, it doesn't happen. But I really don't care one way or another about it happening to me. If the citizens of a city ever choose to revolt and rejoin their old civ, I will gladly send them on their way..............................................................to the Creator. Bwuhahahahahahahaha

Besides, I really like a nice clean map and tend to like to wipe the other civs off the board completely