09-05-2002 03:46									#1
	Should the BIC files be compressed? Tired of ads?

Does anyone think the BIC files are too large? Does anyone want the BIC files to be compressed (in the same manner as the saved games)? Or are you all happy with the size of BIC files?

	09-05-2002 03:56									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, they aren't very big... Mybe BICs with maps could be compressed, and when you start to add units and cities to them they will grow, so it might be good to compress them just to be sure they don't grow.


*sigh* My keybord layout just swiched to English, I hate this XP bug. Good that I know both...

	09-05-2002 03:57									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

* MarkG wants to send a "no comment" t-shirt to Mike for making this thread

* MarkG thinks it's better to leave bic files uncompressed, only to have it easier for fan-made tools too edit them

	09-05-2002 04:01									#4
	Tired of ads?

* Gramphos thinks it might be time to release the decompressor exe with a readme...

* Gramphos thinks it's bad that & is where / used to be... and > that is were : used to be...

	09-05-2002 04:44									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You knew that you would have to do this eventually:
BIC files can be compressed in the Editor. Option is in Preferences and the game automatically takes care of decompression as needed.

.SAV file compression is also an option in the game Preferences. Of course, the game automatically takes care of decompression as needed.

	10-05-2002 03:06									#6
	Re: Should the BIC files be compressed? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS Does anyone think the BIC files are too large? Does anyone want the BIC files to be compressed (in the same manner as the saved games)? Or are you all happy with the size of BIC files?

First of all, I'd like to thank Firaxis for coming out to make questions to us players. Thank you.

I'm definitely not happy with compression.
Since the v1.21 patch the save files are compressed, and that makes start-up and loading times much longer. I think that people who have problems with file size should either delete the unwanted save files or compress them manually.
Please remove compression, don't add some more!

	10-05-2002 03:20									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I voted yes to compression , but only compress them if it won't take longer to save them.. I guess it'll be useful to reduce save file spaces so why not.

What i'm more worried about is saving the Bic file with each save game, I think there should be an option to reload it each time to help scenario editors.
Its quite a pain.. I'd suggest you have an option when you start a game/scenario if you want to save the bic with the save files, so then noone else playing it can modify the rules.
Otherwise the bic file would be reloaded each game load, so scenario editors can modify rules to test things easier.

Well done on compressing the save files, they were taking tonnes of space.. slows down us scenario programmers though possibly.

	10-05-2002 04:00									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The MOD I made is 109KB uncompressed and 26KB compressed.

Why should this be compressed?
100KB is not much.

And for transfer via web, you'll ZIP it anyway.


P.S.
Although I would love to have BIC editor which could change rules in SAVE files (could help in playtesting my MOD). In that case there should be some lock function to prevent altering rules for various tounrnament games.

	10-05-2002 07:22									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Have an option to dump them out in a xml format and reload them from this format. Yes, Mike, I know the size will be huge. I also know that there are things I can do with that, that your editor won't easily support without a lot of changes.

	10-05-2002 07:27									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by player1 The MOD I made is 109KB uncompressed and 26KB compressed. Why should this be compressed? 100KB is not much.

Looking at the unfinished mod I made this afternoon, 439KB and I haven't added everything yet. Mods with maps are lots bigger. Marla's map is over 600kb. Mods that will have a huge map, units, and cities will be around 1500 kb. Is this a lot? Not for me, but some people don't have large disk drives.

	10-05-2002 12:13									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by player1 The MOD I made is 109KB uncompressed and 26KB compressed. Why should this be compressed? 100KB is not much.

Well, your MOD has no map, and morw importent, the editor is not finished yet. KI think that with full Scenario abilities (PTW) the BICS can easaly become 1.5 MB+ If you add many units and cities to a map.

Rules only BICs are not that big, and will probably never be. (There aren't that many rules)

	10-05-2002 12:55									#12
	Too big?? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lol, doubt it, If the save file is less than a 1.4 floppy, who cares, If they take longer to save and load, then NO dont do it, and If it makes it hard to change them with an editor, then Definately NO dont do it, But the average computer that'd requires to Run the game has at least a 5Gb H.D.D. So whats 1Mg when it comes down to it

(I have 2x30Gb HDD at 10K Rpms so I dont care if the file is 5Mg per save, just as long as its fats to load and save and editable)

	10-05-2002 13:16									#13
	Suffering from ads?

How many people have a PC which meets the requirements and don't have Gigabyte Harddisks? I don't know it really, but I suppose most people have enough hard disk space. And for sending it around the web, they can be zipped easily. So I don't think it's a good idea to compress them, makes tools more difficult to produce and use and will entail longer loading times.

And I agree, that there should be an option available for NOT saving SAV's together with the BIC of this SAV, because this is a real pain for creating scenarios/mods. (intrduced with 1.21 for unknown reason?)

	10-05-2002 13:27									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My advice is , make it optional

Quite a few people have had problems with speed, and to introduce yet more slow down (even if it is only at load time) would not make much sense, unless the user actually wanted to save space on there disk.

So I vote .. NO .. don't compress it ..

but would say YES, make it optional for those that need to save space, and dont have any issue with slow down.

	10-05-2002 13:51									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1. Need option for compressing in both game and editor.
2. For maps need separate file.

	10-05-2002 14:24									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I voted, that I don't care. For me the BIC files are ok in length. But I understand, that somebody, who creates maps, could take advantage from compressed files.

My approach would be: Make the editor able to read both formats (compressed and uncompressed) without any flag. That should be possible by adding an uncompressed header with compression information, or using the existing one. In the "Save as..." menu option, add 2 formats; compressed BIC and uncompressed BIC. Both should have the extension .BIC.

	10-05-2002 16:31									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think Sir Ralph hit the nail on the head. Let each user decide whether he is going to save compressed or not. Make the editor and game handle both formats (the game already handles both formats of saves).

	10-05-2002 17:31									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Ok, compressed save files don't slow down my system, so I like more a directory of smaller files without the need for frequent delete of files. You can't have enough space for long, you GigaOwner so better reduced size than sorry.

Loading time slowdown? Come on, how often do you reload your save game? Is it really a great problem?

I spend more time using my PC with its always full disk than reloading save game.

About compressed BIC, I suppose that any good programmer can cope with a know, easily available compression schema, as PKWARE library IIRC.

I prefer a "ready to transfer/store" file than a bloated "quick to read", long time spent deleting/defragmenting an HD.

	10-05-2002 18:22									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I vote to keep them as they are unless you also release a Decompress/Recompress utility at the same time.

Remember there is a growing and very active community of Civ III players who are making Mods, editors and other utilites and it's a real plus in relations when the gaming company works with them as you have been doing rather than feeling threatened by some of their modifications and editors.

As a quick example....Blizzard has shot themselves in the foot with their changing of the file format, encrypting, encoding, etc. of the Save Game files of Diablo II. It finally got to the point where the two people who were making great editors had to give up, even though the editors could only be used on single play save games. As long as I'm playing a single player game, why should it be ANY of their business how I play? If I play on-line, the saved game file is on THEIR server, not mine and is therefore inaccessible for editing.

There are days when I like to play Civ III standard.....right out of the box. That's when I'm feeling mellow and patient. There are those others when I've had to deal with various idiots in the world and I want to go 'postal' on my poor little Civ opponants and that's when I need the editor!!

Just my 2 cents worth............

Bill

	10-05-2002 19:24									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

well, because I'm in modding right now, I reload quite often. And I restart a game even more often, because this unwanted SAV/BIC-Problem, introduced with 1.21.

I know I'm a bit repetetive on this, but it's really annyoing. Why did you do this? The Multiplayer-Community is surely not as big as the Modmaker-Community, and they rely on "modcom" Maps and Mod's anyway. So if you want to make most customer's happy, only change things which are really wanted.

Which leads us to another repetitive task: the minimap. I'm 100% sure, that there are more people waiting and hoping for this one, than for compressed sav or bic files.

	10-05-2002 20:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Ok, compressed save files don't slow down my system, so I like more a directory of smaller files without the need for frequent delete of files. You can't have enough space for long, you GigaOwner so better reduced size than sorry. Loading time slowdown? Come on, how often do you reload your save game? Is it really a great problem? I spend more time using my PC with its always full disk than reloading save game. About compressed BIC, I suppose that any good programmer can cope with a know, easily available compression schema, as PKWARE library IIRC. I prefer a "ready to transfer/store" file than a bloated "quick to read", long time spent deleting/defragmenting an HD.

I appear to be in the minority vote, but I say either compress them or GIVE the option to have compress/noncompress.

As others have pointed out, many people don't have the extra HD space, and yes some files are already 600k+ in size. Why should these people have to buy floppy disks to keep them on?

When I bought my 20 GB HD system, I was led to believe it would take a long time to fill it up. That may be true if you don't buy a decent number of PC games. Shogun TW/WE easily takes over 1 GB of memory. I am down to just over 6 GB, and have NOT loaded Shogun or several other new games I have bought.

Speaking as a GigaOwner, I say either compress or give the option to decide compress/noncompress.

What too many people voting no don't realize is that many people CAN'T either: upgrade memory and/or buy a new computer. I visit about a dozen Civ3 sites on a regular basis, and many of the people I have talked with are running the game on a system that is barely capable of holding the game as it is. They have opted to buy games, instead of upgrade their systems.

Hopefully, the CD case will give accurate information on how much space is required to install the game, since the CD said 400 MB, and the game when to be installed said 500+ MB.

	10-05-2002 20:49									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What is you included the civlopedia and/or the diplomancy text files in the bic? That you be one less file to back up/copy when playing mods/scenarioes an would give a goo reason for bic compression.

	10-05-2002 21:30									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Why don't you just do what zsnes does and have the game able to look inside of any .zip file it sees in its directory and grab bic files out of them for use.

	11-05-2002 01:27									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I voted yes. I have a 2 GB harddrive, so there is rarely any empty space and compressed bic files might help a lot.

	11-05-2002 03:14									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Since many people have asked, here are the reasons for and effects of, compressing BIC files:

Compressing BIC files will make them smaller. This is really the only reason to compress them.

Loading and saving a compressed BIC file will take slightly longer but it will not change the time it takes to load saved games. Also, the speed decrease caused by compressing the BIC files will not be as much as compressing the saved files (uncompressed saves are larger than uncompressed BIC files which means compression takes longer on saves). Most likely, the speed difference between compressed and uncompressed BIC files will not be noticeable since they are not be loaded during gameplay.

Compressed BIC files will be more difficult to modify outside of Civ3Edit -- the many tools that exist that modify BICs will have to have the compression algorithm built into them. However, the algorithm will be identical to that used in saved games so it wouldn't be impossible to add it to the tools (especially for Gramphos' and jimmyh's tools since they have already handled the compression in their saved game editors).

	11-05-2002 03:32									#26
	Tired of ads?

Is it that much more work to allow an individual to choose whether or not to compress? Could it be done under preferences?

	11-05-2002 04:35									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It would be more work to include the option certainly .. but how much more work, depends on the setup of the code ..

If you want to add compression (no options) all you have to do is slap on the compression algorithm to the existing Load & Save options .. no so complicated if the algorithm already exists ..

To add the option, would mean a re-build of the GUI , additional functions to handle the on/off state, additional variable to remember the state, and then you can add the compression algorithm in the load/save IF the var says the user has selected compression.

of course, personally, id opt for the save box to have a compress option, but the load to auto detect from the BIC file if it is compressed or not .. cos at least then you can load either, regardless of the user selecting compress, and you don't need to bother with an additional member variable\functions holding Compression status ..

	11-05-2002 08:58									#28
	Got spare money?

Only in PBEM games and (if is applicable) other MP possibilities.

In the rest of possibilities, with a simple option to turn on/off is enough.

	11-05-2002 12:18									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No turn on/off is needed, if you make the game and the editor able to read both compressed and uncompressed BICs, and add in the "Save as..." dialog box two formats to choose, "Compressed BIC" and "Uncompressed BIC".

	11-05-2002 15:36									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph No turn on/off is needed, if you make the game and the editor able to read both compressed and uncompressed BICs, and add in the "Save as..." dialog box two formats to choose, "Compressed BIC" and "Uncompressed BIC".

hi ,

okay , but lets say you dont know english that good , and press one or the other , and later ya work with that file and then ya press the the other option then the one you chose , ....its a Q from a 9 year old , ....for real !!!

have a nice day