10-05-2002 23:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Should the US ever fight two wars at once is a better question, IMO.

Kim (il Sung?) : I hear the US is now at war with Iraq.

Adviser: This would be very good time to attack South Korea, no?

Kim: No that would be unfair. Attack when US has is its military tied up half a world away? Better to wait till they are done.


Whether you agree with US policy on Iraq, Korea, or elsewhere, the rationale of a 2 regional war capability is that potential adversaries of the US are not stupid, and would likely take advantage of a situation like the above.

LOTM

	10-05-2002 23:29									#32
	Re: Rumsfeld kills "Crusader" Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2-2002May8.html For those too lazy to read the link... Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has opt to kill the "Crusader" self-propelled Howitzer. The argument against it being (1) too heavy and (2) bombs now work just as well as artillary. Of course, that's pure crap. This means the Army(and, to lesser degree, the marines.), is grabbed by the balls, artillarywise. As it now stands, the frickin' French are now far ahead of us, artillary techwise. ( The Current US Self-propelled Howitzer, the Paladin, is a 1979 upgrade to a 1959 design). .

Fortunately we're most unlikely to go to war against the French. Which potential ADVERSARY has artillery superior to the Paladin??
Iraq? Iran? N. Korea? China? Given that artillery is only one component of a combined arms battlefield, (along with armor, missiles, tactical air power, etc) and that resources are limited (lets not start on that one) it does not appear unreasonable to look for economies in this area.

Iraq is likely to be over well before this system comes on line. The most likely scenario for a war with China (a Chinese invasion of Taiwan) would be dominated by air and naval power. It is hard to see why we should be focusing resources on heavy land combat.

and on MC being the "expeditionary corps" - what about the airborne and mountain divisions of the army. look at current campaign in Afganistan - MC in first, as cutting edge, then replacement by LIGHT elements of US Army. While Army and MC still have distinct roles, i think view is that Army still needs great mobility. No more planning based on the Fulda gap.

LOTM

	10-05-2002 23:43									#33
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The Army has a different mentality. I went and did an exercise at kelly Barracks. I asked what unit was the base for. It was for the something soemthing number "support" group. I mean a whole firggen base for support group. I tried to figure out what support meant and the b est I could find out was that it was postal clerks. See it is a HUGE deal to get the mail to soldiers.

Friggen A. We never got any mail on the submarine.

	11-05-2002 00:01									#34
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Seems there is a bit of a fight brewing over Crusader. A new spending bill was approved today that includes funding for Crusader ...

quote: Both versions contain $475 million for the Army to continue developing the $11 billion Crusader cannon. But the House went further and included nonbinding language telling the Pentagon not to kill it before producing a study on the alternatives. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who had long championed the program, announced Wednesday that he wants to dump the new gun in favor of more futuristic technologies like precision-guided bombing.

For the whole article, click here.

	11-05-2002 00:04									#35
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quote: Kim (il Sung?) : I hear the US is now at war with Iraq. Adviser: This would be very good time to attack South Korea, no? Kim: No that would be unfair. Attack when US has is its military tied up half a world away? Better to wait till they are done.

Why the hell should we fight North Korea, or Iraq for that matter?

	11-05-2002 02:33									#36
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Because we can kick their asses, Dave.

	11-05-2002 03:45									#37
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I am not military and therefore I may be way out of my depth here, but I don't really see a overwhelming need for mobile artillery that can only fire trajectory shells, which I presume is the case with the Crusader. For offensive operations it seems to me that precision guided weapons are critical. On defense, it would seem that cluster weapons would be the preferred choice. Both of these are best delivered by air power. Not so?

The Crusader also seems to be so physically large that it would be hard to move to a battlefield without using ships, ports and connecting roads. If this is right, the Crusader would be of little use in a "rapid reaction" environment.

For those of you may know, did artillery play any decisive role in Desert Storm?

Ned

	11-05-2002 08:55									#38
	Re: Re: Rumsfeld kills "Crusader" Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Fortunately we're most unlikely to go to war against the French. Which potential ADVERSARY has artillery superior to the Paladin?? Iraq? Iran? N. Korea? China? Given that artillery is only one component of a combined arms battlefield, (along with armor, missiles, tactical air power, etc) and that resources are limited (lets not start on that one) it does not appear unreasonable to look for economies in this area. Iraq is likely to be over well before this system comes on line. The most likely scenario for a war with China (a Chinese invasion of Taiwan) would be dominated by air and naval power. It is hard to see why we should be focusing resources on heavy land combat.

Just Be Prepared...

Seriously, we need artillary, specifically fast, rapid-fire artillary, becuase, in the event we have soldiers on the ground and it's cloudy out, said soldiers are screwed. (no all weather planes)

Many Russian self-propelled artillary pieces are superior to the Paladin, and many large, 3rd Armies have said artillary pieces.

quote: and on MC being the "expeditionary corps" - what about the airborne and mountain divisions of the army. look at current campaign in Afganistan - MC in first, as cutting edge, then replacement by LIGHT elements of US Army. While Army and MC still have distinct roles, i think view is that Army still needs great mobility. No more planning based on the Fulda gap. LOTM

Thought I mentioned those light Infantry units.......didn't I?

	11-05-2002 15:49									#39
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Seems to me you got these choices:

A) Spend money on the Challenger, but not on Star Wars (AMD);
B) Spend money on Star Wars, but not on the Challenger;
C) Raise taxes and spend money on both; and
D) Don't spend money on either and cut taxes.

So which are you going to pick?

I'd go for D. The Paladin will still get the job done. Yes, there might be Russian S-P artillery that can fire slightly faster, but does it really matter. I don't think so. The Paladin can still hit hard, when it is used.

When was the last time the Paladin was used? Did it have some type of massive failing? Was there any indication that it was obsolete?

	11-05-2002 16:13									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I am not military and therefore I may be way out of my depth here, but I don't really see a overwhelming need for mobile artillery that can only fire trajectory shells, which I presume is the case with the Crusader. For offensive operations it seems to me that precision guided weapons are critical. On defense, it would seem that cluster weapons would be the preferred choice. Both of these are best delivered by air power. Not so? The Crusader also seems to be so physically large that it would be hard to move to a battlefield without using ships, ports and connecting roads. If this is right, the Crusader would be of little use in a "rapid reaction" environment. For those of you may know, did artillery play any decisive role in Desert Storm? Ned

Nothing can deliver more tonnage on the target more quickly or cheaply than artillery. It's pretty accurate as well. The limitations of artillery are that you have to have a line of supply on the ground to within 40 KM of the target, and artillery generally requires some other ground forces to provide security and target data. This is why we aren't using much artillery in Afghanistan, we don't want to commit to a large ground presence such that we could deliver artillery to the vast regions where we are fighting. So we are using airmobile troops and airpower to back them. If you wanted to create a maximal firepower situation however, artillery would be the bedrock. IIRC, 70% of battlefield casualties in WWII were caused by artillery.

Two of these new vehicles will fit into one of our C-17s or C-5s, so they are potentially airmobile. As for Desert Storm, we pounded the crap out of everything in range of our artillery, with our aircraft beating the stuffing out of the rest.

	11-05-2002 19:54									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Seems to me you got these choices: A) Spend money on the Challenger, but not on Star Wars (AMD); B) Spend money on Star Wars, but not on the Challenger; C) Raise taxes and spend money on both; and D) Don't spend money on either and cut taxes. So which are you going to pick? I'd go for D. The Paladin will still get the job done. Yes, there might be Russian S-P artillery that can fire slightly faster, but does it really matter. I don't think so. The Paladin can still hit hard, when it is used. When was the last time the Paladin was used? Did it have some type of massive failing? Was there any indication that it was obsolete?

I choose "E", kill Amtrak, use it to pay for both.


Anywho, during the Gulf War it was a big deal that the Paladin's couldn't keep pace with the Coalition's advance, there was a worry that the Iraqis could have chewed up the coalition if there wasn't any artillary support availible. (In fact, lots of people point out that the reason why Iraqi tanks were so ineffective was because they used Iraqi-made ammo. Course, Artillary is way the hell more useful on Infantry than tanks...)

	12-05-2002 02:26									#42
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Maybe something will happen. The Sen. Democ. are asking why he cut it. Some of them are talking about keeping it in the budget.

	12-05-2002 03:06									#43
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It's pork barrel politics...

	12-05-2002 03:44									#44
	Re: Rumsfeld kills "Crusader" Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...2-2002May8.html For those too lazy to read the link...

i wish more people would do this!

	12-05-2002 07:03									#45
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no offense. But crusader is ****. Its way to freakin big and costs way to much. the Paladin's and MLRS are just fine for the next 50 years.

Not to mention we can deliver such a payload via cruise missile at 1/100 of the cost!

Whats wrong with the paladin? Nothing. Am I afraid the Russians or icelanders might get ahead? no...artillery is basic and supposed to be demoralizing. Not pinpoint. If its pinpoint, good. But its purpose is to saturate an area so bad, it makes the advancing troops jobs so much easier.

The best use of artillery was in Grozny recently. The Russians leveled the whole damn city with rolling barrages and had troops following the barrages. Go Russia!

	12-05-2002 07:11									#46
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quote: Whats wrong with the paladin? Nothing. Am I afraid the Russians or icelanders might get ahead? no...artillery is basic and supposed to be demoralizing. Not pinpoint.

You couldn't be more wrong. The primary use for US artillery is NOT WW1-style saturation attacks, but rather precise counterbattery fire, and striking supply lines and HQs behind the front. This requires a high degree of precision.

Why use arty for saturation attacks on troops, when it can be better employefd elsewhere and you can just use cluster munitions anyway?

	12-05-2002 07:16									#47
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paladins, 155's, can do both. Do you have any idea what the 155's did to iraqi artillery and bunkers?

	12-05-2002 07:43									#48
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I'm aware of that - my point was that those types of attacks are the primary use for US artillery, in response to your comment that artillery should be basic and not of pinpoint accuracy.

	12-05-2002 07:59									#49
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It's been proven that a mobile army is more effective. If you compare aerial precision bombing to limited ground based artillery, of course aerial is better. The US has the resources to utilize aerial bombing on such a scale that ground based artillery would be irrelevant. Plus, you don't need troops on the ground to launch aerial bombing.

IMO, in today's world, ground based artillery is made obsolete by air superiority. The US would need to transport those heavy ground vehicles, probably by air, anyways. Why not just build smart bombs instead of artillery?

Even though Rumsfeld is a Republican (SCUM), he is a very smart military tactition.

	12-05-2002 08:02									#50
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Sava, you are correct in that artillery is easily destroyed if you do not control the air, but incorrect in that artillery is useless under friendly skies.

Airpower cannot be everywhere, and mobile, accurate artillery is an asset to any ground force, especially because artillery is not grounded by the weather.

	12-05-2002 08:03									#51
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Although I do agree that anything other than mobile artillery is an anachronism.

	12-05-2002 09:06									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander each gun can fire up to 8 rounds which can be timed to arrive simultaneously on the target

How? Is muzzle velocity alterable? If not, then my elementary mechanics is telling me that no more than two rounds can be fired at different times from the same spot and reach the target simultaneously.

	12-05-2002 09:08									#53
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quote: How? Is muzzle velocity alterable?

I believe so.

Also, the angle can be altered.

I'm no expert though.

	12-05-2002 09:11									#54
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Angle is fine. I understand that part, but if the projectile always comes out with the same speed then there are at most two angular solutions to firing problem (ignoring changing conditions).

Since most artillery rounds come in cartridges (powder pre-loaded) (AFAIK), then how does gun alter muzzle velocity?

	12-05-2002 09:15									#55
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I have no clue...I'm no mathematician/physicist, but I *BELIEVE* there are ways to do it with computers. It just stands to reason, with my limited knowledge although I freely admit I could be wrong.

	12-05-2002 09:18									#56
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Grr....

I'm sure the calculation of what's going on is done by computer, since it would probably take me 10 minutes on a pocket calculator to figure out a valid solution for 8 shells impacting simultaneously (even ignoring all air effects), but what I want to know is how the gun makes one round go slower than another, if all the rounds have the same amount of gunpowder packed behind them.

The Chinese are paying me good money for this info, so I'd appreciate some input.

	12-05-2002 09:19									#57
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I have no idea

	12-05-2002 09:26									#58
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krazy, I think the clearance of the round in the chamber varies from round to round (the rounds are not identical). This is used to get the different muzzle velocities.

p.s. I totally made that up!

	12-05-2002 21:37									#60
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The history channel had a story on the Crusader. They raise the barrel real high 75 to 80* and fire the first round and the computer start dropping the barrel until all eight round are fired. Therefore all eight shell land about the same time. BTW it will fired 12 rounds a min. The crew is I remember right was only two. One to drive and one to aim and start the firing. The gun is fully automatic, no loader required.
One civil employee in the Army dept has been fired over this and Sec Def said he may fired Sec Army to. This story is not going away soon. We may see a General or a Col. retired over this.

Last edited by on 12-05-2002 at 21:52