09-05-2002 21:32									#1
	Do fast units retreat anymore? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Since 1.21 I can't think of a single incident where I've seen a fast unit retreat. Has anyone? Is this no longer the way it works? I think I've seen more great leaders than retreats from combat.

	09-05-2002 21:33									#2
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Now it's a percentage probablility, and not automatic. Do enough combats and you will witness it.

	09-05-2002 21:52									#3
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Units still retreat, with the chances being better for vets and elites.

Rah what you doing here?

	09-05-2002 21:57									#4
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Still can't remember seeing any. Playing Iroqois, whose monted warriors actually have a 3 move w/my mod, can't remember a single retreat. Is there any way to affect this in editor? Anyone privy to the actual math of the thing?

	09-05-2002 22:13									#5
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They won't ever retreat if the defending unit is "fast". Have you jacked up the movement of the defenders in your mod, too?

	09-05-2002 22:32									#6
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No, just made roads easier to build, increased movement of roads, but learned long ago that upping slow units' moves ruins retreat. Maybe I've just been inattentive, but still can't remember. Kind of bugs me, in that thats a big deal w/ fast units. This kind of takes away from that advantage. Thought it was just fine before.

	09-05-2002 22:32									#7
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Ever since 1.17 unit retreat is chance-based. Editor has that customizeable for the Unit Experience tab.

Yes, I haven't seen units retreat as they would seem like to with their 50%, it seems less, but it works.

	09-05-2002 22:42									#8
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As i understood it, regs cant retreat from veterans or elites either, nor veterans from elites.

	09-05-2002 22:57									#9
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Oh, is that it? Hmmm...... Wow, that kind of sucks. As far as I was concerned it wasn't really broken before they fixed it.

	09-05-2002 23:04									#10
	Re: Do fast units retreat anymore? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by bigvic Since 1.21 I can't think of a single incident where I've seen a fast unit retreat. Has anyone? Is this no longer the way it works? I think I've seen more great leaders than retreats from combat.

Quite often actually. My pathetic country was right in the middle of Rome, Babylon, and a Japanese city; the millenia of wars between them and the fact that they fought most of them in my territory allowed me to see their battles. It happened with Cavalry and the some of the appropriate modern era units.

	09-05-2002 23:21									#11
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What constitutes a 'fast' unit: anything with a movement of 2 or more?

I reckon they should go back to the way it was before - it gives these fast units more of an edge (as you would expect them to have)

	09-05-2002 23:25									#12
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2 move attackers are still very powerful, just not stupidly so like before. The only early defender I can think of that stops withdrawal is the impi. Perhaps Bigvic your editor changes have caused the anomaly?

	09-05-2002 23:32									#13
	It was too easy before... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just play the Aztecs, crank out JW's, beeline to mapmaking, build the light house, conquer the world. At least up to Regent or so. Egyptians were over-powered too. The makers should have remembered the multiplayer chariot swarms and put the fix in from the beginning. 50 Retreatable warrior-cost units is just overwhelming under the old rules, especially with the easier population rushing.

	09-05-2002 23:35									#14
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Yeah, good question. My whole impetus when I first started modding was to allow more movement. Thats where I figured out that, yes, any unit w/ more than 1 movement is a fast unit. But, before the 1.21 mod, retreats worked just fine. Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Have played 1 full game under 1.21, have a couple of halfway finished going now. First was w/ the Babs, no real early war, don't remember any retreats late, though most war was slogging and pounding w/ infantry & artillery. Next game was Iroqois, still playing, but all my attacking units are fast, MW's and knights (in my mod, MW's don't upgrade til cavalry). Can't remember a retreat and have been at war almost since the beginning. Now Got Indians going, have so far avoided war, so no way to tell.

Maybe I've just been inattentive, playing too late at night and all.

	09-05-2002 23:37									#15
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if yo're not happy with the withdraw percentages, you can change them in the editor. I can't remember what they are originally off the top of my head, but I have mine tweaked a little bit. moved elites up to 75% and vets to 66% withdraw

	09-05-2002 23:42									#16
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It's theoretically possible to put 100 percent for all and undo the change, but that is unbalancing.

	09-05-2002 23:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel if yo're not happy with the withdraw percentages, you can change them in the editor. I can't remember what they are originally off the top of my head, but I have mine tweaked a little bit. moved elites up to 75% and vets to 66% withdraw

Oh that IS in the editor? Cool. I'll have to check that out. Thanks. Under units?

	09-05-2002 23:47									#18
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Under Experience levels, for this is experience dependant.

	10-05-2002 04:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by bigvic Still can't remember seeing any. Playing Iroqois, whose monted warriors actually have a 3 move w/my mod, can't remember a single retreat. Is there any way to affect this in editor? Anyone privy to the actual math of the thing?

Are you attacking or defending with the MW.

If you are attacking, they don't retreat back a square, they just break off combat and stay in the same square. If defending they will retreat one square.

	10-05-2002 07:45									#20
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Something simliar happened to me:

At first when I modded, I was hesitant to overwrite the civ3mod, so I made it a scenario. but the scenario bic's dont change with the patches like the civ3mod does. I first realised this when my mod still had +1 food for game, which got increased to 2 in a patch but it did not apply to the scenario. Same thing with retreat bonus. In a scenario, they all default to 0. So no retreats. And then I decided, right after 1.21, that overwriting the civ3mod would save me time, and I didnt want the original rules anyway. So the 0-retreat got saved over the civ3mod. But since then I have decided it is better this way, as fast attackers still have the advantage of greater movement.

So could something like this have happened to your civ3mod? Because the only reason this should be happening is if retreat is set to 0.

	10-05-2002 08:33									#21
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if the unit has a movement point left to escape with..it will.

I can only think of 2 times when one of my tanks failed to escape when i expected it to.

And i have done zillions of new patch attacks now.

so that may be coupled with the elite thing..i'm not sure as all my units are always superior to the defenders (usually because the defenders have already been weakened by artillery or bombers.)

/...just my cent and a halfs worth )

	10-05-2002 08:52									#22
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Yes, they still retreat with 1.21. Just saw some impis do it.

How often compared to 1.17 I'm not sure.

	10-05-2002 09:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 Something simliar happened to me: At first when I modded, I was hesitant to overwrite the civ3mod, so I made it a scenario. but the scenario bic's dont change with the patches like the civ3mod does. I first realised this when my mod still had +1 food for game, which got increased to 2 in a patch but it did not apply to the scenario. Same thing with retreat bonus. In a scenario, they all default to 0. So no retreats. And then I decided, right after 1.21, that overwriting the civ3mod would save me time, and I didnt want the original rules anyway. So the 0-retreat got saved over the civ3mod. But since then I have decided it is better this way, as fast attackers still have the advantage of greater movement. So could something like this have happened to your civ3mod? Because the only reason this should be happening is if retreat is set to 0.

Thanks, to you and everyone else. About to go monkey around in scenario editor after i check around the forum.

	10-05-2002 18:54									#24
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Yeah, I had the same thing happen. Playing a custom mod, when I patched to 1.21f it defaulted all of those percentages to 0 instead of 34/50/58/66, so no mounted units retreated. Of course, I didn't realize this until my Riders got ripped apart. So, I had to go back through every .bic file I had and change the things altered in the patch. Kinda painful.

And in my mod, I added 1 commerce to Game (making them 1 food 1 commerce), so I didn't want to upgrade to 2 food when they patched.