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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
I think that units moved by Rail should be limited to 1 for every 2 or 3 of your cites on a continent. Everyone else uses rails as roads.
Futile? Hardly. MP and PBEM in the Industrial and Modern eras will make or break on this and perhaps 1 or 2 other issues. |
My point about it being futile is just cynicism about Firaxis making such a change at this point in the game.
Now, i suppose you could come up with external rules with your opponent, if that's what your saying, and I would hope that the other player is trustworthy, though you would surely notice if a abnormal amount comes through.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain
btw, it's strange but i joined a year ago and I'm still nowhere near 500 posts (despite coming here almost daily except for some time off), how does one get to 500 posts in 2 months?!? |
By answering questions like this. Tuberski isn't that far ahead of me in the same time. Seven posts a day is what he has and I had the same till recently. I didn't even have to spam. Much.
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:19
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edit: cut out section of previous post and put here, trying to make my posts more readable, less wordy - not being very successful, am I? 
quote:
Originally posted by Captain
back on topic, yes, you folks have got the right idea. it isn't about how far it could travel in 1 turn=1 year, IRL, it's about play balance. reducing infinite mvt for ground will help boost sea and air transport. it will also prevent the civ 2 style RR howies into cities along a chain of unstoppable destruction. without infinite, we can actually use distance to do something strategically.
plenty of solutions, but hard to find something with not too much micromanagement and also feasible with minor changes to current system.
but here are some ideas:
build a locomotive (transports X) that works like a helo. needs to "rebase" in RR stations (either cities or tile improvements). so can go instantly to any RR station. (my preference). loco has mvt radius of any other station within 30 tiles (or something like that). this is my first choice.
build locomotive units, same as above, but no need for RR stations. travels only on rails.
uberkrux's great idea of mvt cost for going onto and off rails, but not along. good idea, not sure it solves RR howie exploit though
build RR stations as city improvements. units can move between any cities connected by tracks and stations. prevents RRing into most recently captured city.
alt: move only 3 units per RR stations (needs a separate counter, not hard, resets each turn to 3 * #RRstations = n, every time units moves on rails, subtract 1 from counter, but what if you stop moving, move another, and come back to the first unit?)
attach gold cost to cost to instantly transport units along rails
add 20 mvt to each unit on rails. (needs some way of tracking moves along rails)
change RR mvt to multiplier (easiest to do, non-ideal solution)
other suggestions?
asleepatthewheel, yes, I doubt firaxis will do any of these, i am just curious what others think might be a good solution |
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wrylachlan
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I've posted this at least a half dozen times on different threads, but this one seems the most appropriate. This idea I think is a very elegant way of fixing railroads that makes both offence and defence more strategic.:
Roads and railroads make the game unstrategic because their bonuses make players and the AI put them everywhere. When railroads cover every single tile, no one tile is of strategic importance.
My fix is simple. Do away with the bonus per tile that having a road or railroad on that tile confers. NO per tile bonus. Instead give a city an OVERALL percentage bonus for each of the four closest neighboring cities connected by a DIRECT road or railroad.
Additionally make building roads and railroads significantly more difficult or have an upkeep. The end result of all this will be that each city will only have four roads/railroads leading out of it, and each one will be of serious strategic importance.
When you take over a city all rail tiles adjacent to the city, which your units do not already occupy, auto-destruct (your enemies militia destroys them as they flee). This would prevent the phenomenon of stacks blitzing through an empire on a single turn using the enemies rail lines.
On the offensive side of the coin, with only four RRs leading into a city, bombing out the rail lines to prevent reinforcement becomes a viable strategy.
As I said at the top, I have posted this idea in a number of threads, and gotten no response. Come on guys what do you think?
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:19
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I was supposed to shut up right? Oh well... 
quote:
Originally posted by wrylachlan
I've posted this at least a half dozen times on different threads, but this one seems the most appropriate. This idea I think is a very elegant way of fixing railroads that makes both offence and defence more strategic.:
Roads and railroads make the game unstrategic because their bonuses make players and the AI put them everywhere. When railroads cover every single tile, no one tile is of strategic importance.
My fix is simple. Do away with the bonus per tile that having a road or railroad on that tile confers. NO per tile bonus. Instead give a city an OVERALL percentage bonus for each of the four closest neighboring cities connected by a DIRECT road or railroad.
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Would be very good, except you'd have to replace the source of the bonus with some other improvements that would be timely. Replacing RR bonus for food or shields is easy. AgRev gives better farms. Explosives give shaft mining.
The commerce bonus is harder. What do you replace road bonuses with? You have to replace it or the entire balance for progress in the game is thrown off. It should not be a city improvement.
No. Roads should stay. How many cities do you know of that are not surrounded by rats nests of roads? Furthermore the strategic effects of roads are not nearly as HUGE as RRs. RRs are a game ender. Get them and you largely do not have to worry about losing cities to conquest in most cases. The same cannot be said of roads.
quote:
Additionally make building roads and railroads significantly more difficult or have an upkeep. The end result of all this will be that each city will only have four roads/railroads leading out of it, and each one will be of serious strategic importance.
When you take over a city all rail tiles adjacent to the city, which your units do not already occupy, auto-destruct (your enemies militia destroys them as they flee). This would prevent the phenomenon of stacks blitzing through an empire on a single turn using the enemies rail lines.
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This is a good suggestion. I'm surprised the designers didn't think of it/implement it given the stated bias against winning through war.
quote:
On the offensive side of the coin, with only four RRs leading into a city, bombing out the rail lines to prevent reinforcement becomes a viable strategy.
As I said at the top, I have posted this idea in a number of threads, and gotten no response. Come on guys what do you think? |
I think I really hope that some people from Firaxis give this whole thread a good, long look. Or they are already thinking along these lines.
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Captain
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by Divine Right
May 2001
time: 00:19
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wrylachlan,
interesting ideas, I'll have to think about those some more.
1 thing pops out at me now, wouldn't ics be encouraged then? close packed cities would benefit from your system much much better, no?
more when i think of it, but other than the above, sounds like a good solution.
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
RRs are a game ender. Get them and you largely do not have to worry about losing cities to conquest in most cases.
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versus the AI. against a human player, i suspect the opposite. i don't think you'd have a chance to react and concentrate your forces to deflect a RR-howie civ2 style blitz. you'd lose a mighty number of cities before being able to counter. you'd only be able tos it there and watch... (unless playing turnless or simult, of course, )
if I was playing vicious, I'd attack en masse certain points, railroad along, raze as many of your cities as possible (using the side tiles to bypass once the culture border disappears), and then retreat, cutting off all my own rrs. I've pushed your border in 5 cities deep, killed your units in those areas, and destroyed the rail leading back. of course I've wiped out my offensive army in the process, but you've lost half production, and whatever units you have to return fire will take five turns to get to me, enough time for me to rebuild my forces. remember my empire is still intact.
edit: well, this might make helos more useful...
quote:
I think I really hope that some people from Firaxis give this whole thread a good, long look. Or they are already thinking along these lines. |
me too, but i don't think i've ever gotten a response from a firaxian yet...
that's ok though, as long as the ideas get across.
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wrylachlan
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
I was supposed to shut up right? Oh well...
Would be very good, except you'd have to replace the source of the bonus with some other improvements that would be timely. Replacing RR bonus for food or shields is easy. AgRev gives better farms. Explosives give shaft mining.
The commerce bonus is harder. What do you replace road bonuses with? You have to replace it or the entire balance for progress in the game is thrown off. It should not be a city improvement.
No. Roads should stay. How many cities do you know of that are not surrounded by rats nests of roads? Furthermore the strategic effects of roads are not nearly as HUGE as RRs. RRs are a game ender. Get them and you largely do not have to worry about losing cities to conquest in most cases. The same cannot be said of roads.
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I agree that making the food and shield bonuses through new techs would be the easiest thing. But the commerce bonus should come from having your city connected to the next city. When a worker completes a road or railroad tile, the computer parses through to see if it completes a road between two cities. If it does it institutes a 5% percent overall bonus to commerce or 10% if RR. (obviously the exact percentages could be adjusted with playtesting) And if a road or RR is destroyed, the computer parses through the connected tiles to see if this "unlinks" cities. If it does, those cities loose their bonus. I'm not a hardcore programmer, but I know enough to say that this wouldn't be a terribly difficult thing to code (the bonus that is, getting the AI to understand the bonus and use it strategically might be more difficult).
quote:
interesting ideas, I'll have to think about those some more.
1 thing pops out at me now, wouldn't ics be encouraged then? close packed cities would benefit from your system much much better, no? |
It depends on balancing. If the percentage bonus was really high and the upkeep for railroads was really high, then the benefit of having closer cities would outweigh the loss of productivity for overlapping city use areas. If the percentage bonus are worth having, but not worth loosing productivity over, then people would not build overlapping cities.
I also had another idea which would change the attacker/defender dynamic. What if only ground troops can totally destroy roads/RR's. Bombardment/bombing would make them "broken RRs/broken roads". And it takes workers significantly less time to fix a "broken ..." than to build one from scratch.
The effect this would have on play is that if you are on the defensive and it looks like your city is going to be over-run, you can flee totally destroying the roads on the way out. If your enemy has bombarded the roads leading into your city and you want to send reinforcements it is easier to rebuilt the RR and send in the troops. This keeps the balance of war on the defenders side.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by wrylachlan
I'm not a hardcore programmer, but I know enough to say that this wouldn't be a terribly difficult thing to code (the bonus that is, getting the AI to understand the bonus and use it strategically might be more difficult). |
The game actually makes this check allready. Its not done for the reasons you want but there is a similar effect. Cities that are connected by road to the rest of the Empire have less corruption. The equivalent to a Courthouse. Also of course the road connection check has to be made for trade with the rest of the Empire and for connection to other Empires.
quote:
I also had another idea which would change the attacker/defender dynamic. What if only ground troops can totally destroy roads/RR's. Bombardment/bombing would make them "broken RRs/broken roads". And it takes workers significantly less time to fix a "broken ..." than to build one from "scratch. |
I can see the arguement now.
'I want lethal bombardment of rails'
'You ninny in 1915 in the nation of Andorra a Jenny dropped two 20 pound bombs on a rail crossing and destroyed Andorra's connection to Spain.'
'@%^&* you @(*@#%&( that was a Basque @#%(& that did that with sappers.'
')(*%& _)*^& ^T%) &)^0 You'
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11-05-2002 11:43
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[/rant]
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