12-05-2002 14:42									#31
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the bank that was formerly owned by Imran Siddiqui

	12-05-2002 18:28									#32
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According to the government, Argentina will loose 1.400 million dolars per years because of this new subsidies.
More or less the same amount that Israel receives per year as american help.

	12-05-2002 19:14									#33
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quote: According to the government, Argentina will loose 1.400 million dolars per years because of this new subsidies.

That really sucks, considering Argentina's economic state.

	13-05-2002 00:32									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion the bank that was formerly owned by Imran Siddiqui

And I made a killing selling it

	13-05-2002 01:23									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I agree. Daschle should be sucking Bush's cheney over this one. It's the least he could do. This bill really irks me. It's not in our best interests. The irony is that most of this money will end up in the pockets of the big Euro agrochemical companies.

Eh? I don't think I understand your latter remark.

	13-05-2002 01:37									#36
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quote: Eh? I don't think I understand your latter remark.

Indeed. Maybe he's suggesting that these American subsidies will make it less likely the EU will lower it's subsidies...that's all I can think off.

	13-05-2002 02:17									#37
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I think you should be happy enough I spelled your name correctly, Imran

	13-05-2002 02:21									#38
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What's your problem with Imran Sidvicious name?

	13-05-2002 02:22									#39
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if only, Spotty K

(I'd post your pic, again, but this is a quick reply)

	13-05-2002 03:31									#40
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"Eh? I don't think I understand your latter remark."

The agrochemical companies (most of whom are Euro), are counting on a good portion of these subsidies flowing right into their pockets.

	13-05-2002 04:20									#41
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Mark, Holland exports more flowers than Khasmir!? Are you sure? Even tho Khasmir isnt a country, a shitload of flowers come from there.


Oh and Subsidies are wrong. Unless, the industry is so bad and your country is so dependant on that industry.

	13-05-2002 05:32									#42
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I do seem to detect an upsurge in protectionism across the West over the last 10 years or so.

I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end of the current bout of 'globalization' with many parallels to the raising of tariffs in the 1890's and 1900's that killed off the last globalization (between 1850 and 1913 world trade jumped tenfold - stagnated between 1913 and 1945 and has leapt twentyfold since then).

There are also parallels in the growing distrust of large corporations, the rise in power of grass-roots pressure groups (unions then NGO's now), and a dissolusionment with traditional political parties.


The previous globalisation ended with a massive war, a global economic slump unparrelled for a century, the rise to power of extremist politics (communism and facism) and a war even more massive than the 'war to end all wars'.


Now maybe I'm being pessimistic but I first noticed these parallels over a decade ago and if anything they have grown worse in that time.

	13-05-2002 06:03									#43
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prevouis globalisation ended with a war? Nono.....the war started with the economic problems in the west. A failure of capitalism and banking across the board. Out of that, Fascists and Communists rose up. Both preying on high-unemployment and promising bread and stability.


That wont happen again.

	13-05-2002 19:59									#44
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"Now maybe I'm being pessimistic"

God, I need a drink.

ef, you're being way too pessimistic, at least from the US corner. That's why this crap is so frustrating. Bush is giving too much to the protectionists--they have largely been discredited.

Consider that as he signing the bill, a fast track free trade negotiation bill is also being prepared and is expected to make it through the House and Senate without a hitch. Coincidence? But I wonder who was holding the fast track negotiation bill up. The Senate is packed full of free traders.

I just hope Bush got a good package deal for steel and agro and didn't settle for just fast track.

	13-05-2002 20:15									#45
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I really worry about this kind of stuff. The democrats have pretty much shown that they can not be trusted with *** for tat exchanges. For instance, when Bush sr. broke his new taxes pledge, it was in exchange for spending cuts. These cuts were reneged on, the next year.

	13-05-2002 20:16									#46
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quote: Bush at it again, more protectionism

Marcus at it again, more "America sucks" threads.

That being said, I happen to favor free trade, so I think this latest round of protectionism is a bad idea. The last thing we need is a trade war between the US and EU - the type of thing that triggered the Great Depression.

On the other hand, for a European to be complaining about agricultural protectionism without mentioning the EU's policies is a bit disingenuous, don't you think Marcus?

-Arrian

	13-05-2002 21:12									#47
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quote: On the other hand, for a European to be complaining about agricultural protectionism without mentioning the EU's policies is a bit disingenuous, don't you think Marcus?

A. I don't agree with the EU subsidies for agriproducts either.
B. Everyone already knows the EU is subsidising this, while this move is new.
C. Bush claims to promote free trade. French socialists who favor the agri-subsidies do not claim to promote free trade.
D. This is the second big protectionist move of Bush in a matter of months.

Need more reasons?

	13-05-2002 21:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus A. I don't agree with the EU subsidies for agriproducts either. B. Everyone already knows the EU is subsidising this, while this move is new. C. Bush claims to promote free trade. French socialists who favor the agri-subsidies do not claim to promote free trade. D. This is the second big protectionist move of Bush in a matter of months. Need more reasons?

Is Holland and the rest of the EU as protectionist as France?
Regarding agriculture, of course.

	13-05-2002 21:43									#49
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quote: Is Holland and the rest of the EU as protectionist as France? Regarding agriculture, of course.

No. we want to reform the current subsidies, though others (mainly France) refuse.

We pay more than we get sadly

	13-05-2002 21:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "Eh? I don't think I understand your latter remark." The agrochemical companies (most of whom are Euro), are counting on a good portion of these subsidies flowing right into their pockets.

But the farmers get something in return, right?

	13-05-2002 22:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus A. I don't agree with the EU subsidies for agriproducts either. B. Everyone already knows the EU is subsidising this, while this move is new. C. Bush claims to promote free trade. French socialists who favor the agri-subsidies do not claim to promote free trade. D. This is the second big protectionist move of Bush in a matter of months. Need more reasons?

Actually, the addition of (A) in your original post would have done wonders. It would have made your little tirade a balanced objection to protectionism. That's what I was after - an acknowledgement that Europe (yeah, specifically the ever-cooperative french) plays this stupid game too. That's all.

C. is a good point. I don't appreciate hypocrisy either.
D. agreed. Both bad moves.

-Arrian

	13-05-2002 22:21									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus IS Bush really right wing? He's acting as a French socialist.

Okay, let's exchange our presidents ! We give you chirac and we take Bush Jr. Okay ?

	13-05-2002 22:33									#53
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quote: Okay, let's exchange our presidents ! We give you chirac and we take Bush Jr. Okay ?

I don't know who's worse...

	13-05-2002 22:54									#54
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Hm tough call. But Im all for it. Would be funny to confront Bush with the French Public

	13-05-2002 23:52									#55
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But even more funny would it be to confront Jacques aved the American one.

Mind you, I'd like to see the looks on their faces when he calls them EU citizens.

	13-05-2002 23:53									#56
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quote: IS Bush really right wing? He's acting as a French socialist.

Can't you differenciate socialism and nationalism?

	13-05-2002 23:55									#57
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I knew only members of an intellectual elite would get that remark.

	14-05-2002 00:12									#58
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Okay, let's exchange our presidents ! We give you chirac and we take Bush Jr. Okay ?

Better not, Le Pen would have won the elections then I"m afraid

	14-05-2002 02:23									#59
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quote: Can't you differenciate socialism and nationalism?

not when it comes to Bushonomics.

	14-05-2002 02:29									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus D. This is the second big protectionist move of Bush in a matter of months

Third. You aren't on the wrong end of their lumber tarriffs...