01-07-2002 14:44									#121
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Hi, let me introduce myself. I'm an 18-year-old currently applying for university, a huge Moo Civ, Imperialism, Eu2 and other such games fan

My suggestion: have a GP possible minimum and maximum. allow GP carryover at some conversion rate, and allow them to be saved only for a given amount of turns. Make the base amount determined by the government type, as more authoritarian ones get more.
My idea is larger empires to be forced to be more authoritarian, which is supposed to have disadvantages to balance this? Imagine the Roman empire vs. Italian merchant republics. What do you think, is this idea wroth it or I'm just too uninformed about the game to give suggestions?

	01-07-2002 18:31									#122
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quote: Originally posted by GP I don't think that I gave permission for my name to be used. Seems strange to see GP popping out of every post.

Excellent point. I think from now on I will refer to them as "Points of Governance" (PGs)...I was getting real tired of saying that I liked GP, that I thought GP was good, and wanted to bring GP into the project. Ugh!

R:PM

	01-07-2002 18:40									#123
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quote: Originally posted by JMarks Woohoo, RPM won't reply till monday!

Ehh...You no likey me banter??

quote: Anyway, my solution to the GP would follow suit to Vel's much earlier suggestion. Beurocracy. Sure it costs a bunch (money and later pop wise), but it allows better control, aka more GPs. Otherwise, what would be the point? A micromanager won't use AI governors anyway, and the people already build to their whims. More control would make micromanagers tend to one type of governing (really independant of whether its a monarchy, repub, or ogli) that is, fine beaurocratic detailing. Still, if we impliment GPs, we should have different playing methods. Static GPs, GPs which grow with Beaurocracy (which is independent of buildings, but will require them to be even more efficent, bigger buildings for bigger beaurocracies), and no GPs. Three options to fit all of our pallets. Of course the first two would vary the GPs with GP difficulty. Am I making sense or am I flailing again?

Maybe? Let me restate for my own benefit.
Three types of PG scenarios:

1. No PGs
2. Static PGs (or PGs that change slightly throught the course of the game say (some fudge factor)*(total player (human or AI) controlled provinces)/(total players (human and AI)). Hmm, taking more provinces will still get you more PGs, but it will also give more PGs to everyone else.
3. A staticly seeded PG that is influenced by the goverment type? Seems like this will be hard to pull off realistically. For instance in the advanced forms of goverment like democracy, how much control does one man have?

Anyway, JM how close am I to you idea??

R:PM

	01-07-2002 19:39									#124
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL Ehh...You no likey me banter??

Actually I do like your banter, just joshin' ya, thats all. It'd be no fun if only pro PG-13s were around.

Personally I think we should go for R. That way we can show more blood and gore fighting scenes, you know, the stuff they had to cut out of LoTRs? Can't wait for the unedited DVD.

quote: Maybe? Let me restate for my own benefit. Three types of PG scenarios: 1. No PGs 2. Static PGs (or PGs that change slightly throught the course of the game say (some fudge factor)*(total player (human or AI) controlled provinces)/(total players (human and AI)). Hmm, taking more provinces will still get you more PGs, but it will also give more PGs to everyone else. 3. A staticly seeded PG that is influenced by the goverment type? Seems like this will be hard to pull off realistically. For instance in the advanced forms of goverment like democracy, how much control does one man have? Anyway, JM how close am I to you idea?? R:PM

Close save on #3 which is the type I'm crusading for. (and to not offend the muslims here, jihading) Don't know how close you are on #2, you'll have to ask diplomat. But my idea starts with a given number of PGs based on difficulty. Investment in beaurocracies give you more, because Points of Governence represent your power to actually go around and do stuff. When you hire others to do your bidding, you expand your power. So, its NOT based on government type! Besides, you can always be the demigog of the democracy. Pericles anyone? (Hmmm, probably got the wrong Athenian, but hey, close enough. )

Which reminds me, I should work up my ideas on governments (and sliders for them!) soon.

Hey Krum,

Your idea could be a nice fourth, but I don't like the government as a basis for #of PGs one gets. But my idea of investing in beaurocracy people can give you the same effect. Remember, Rome was a Republic for a while too, and they had tons of beaurocracy. They just needed someone to keep the order. (do what I say, do it now! )

Which means we might need another citizen type. The beaurocrat! So Vell, think you can work them in?

	01-07-2002 19:55									#125
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quote: Originally posted by JMarks Actually I do like your banter, just joshin' ya, thats all. It'd be no fun if only pro PG-13s were around. Personally I think we should go for R. That way we can show more blood and gore fighting scenes, you know, the stuff they had to cut out of LoTRs? Can't wait for the unedited DVD.

I knew that, just couldn't resist replying to your comment.

quote: Close save on #3 which is the type I'm crusading for. (and to not offend the muslims here, jihading) Don't know how close you are on #2, you'll have to ask diplomat.

Apparently, I can remember who I was talking to from Fri to Mon.

quote: But my idea starts with a given number of PGs based on difficulty. Investment in beaurocracies give you more, because Points of Governence represent your power to actually go around and do stuff. When you hire others to do your bidding, you expand your power. So, its NOT based on government type! Besides, you can always be the demigog of the democracy. Pericles anyone? (Hmmm, probably got the wrong Athenian, but hey, close enough. ) Which reminds me, I should work up my ideas on governments (and sliders for them!) soon.

What is an investment in beaurocracy (example please)?
So I do not use PGs when I use my advisors to manage, although they prolly don't do exactly what I want?

quote: Which means we might need another citizen type. The beaurocrat! So Vell, think you can work them in?

Not another one. AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

R:PM

	01-07-2002 21:22									#126
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Got at least a dash of creative juice back now, and am once more diving into the revision of the societal model, which will include, among other things, specialist citizens....not 100% sure if the b'crat will make the cut tho...lol...could be interesting...will play around with that!

Also, having done some *serious* thinking about it, I can come up with no good way to avoid tracking at least some data at the citizen level. I can minimize that, but there's almost no way to make a realistic model tracking at the archetype level.

Re: Training. We can call it training or something else....primarily, the reason we need it is that the mechanism provides a delaying break (only peasants with a 20% training rate can be "promoted") that keeps the economy from growing too quickly. The training function will also be instrumental in terms of those previously mentioned specialists. Still working on the particulars of that, and trying different stuff out (including ways of incorporating GP's into the societal model as a whole...bizzare thread of a thought), so just cos I'm not posting like a mad man over the next stretch of time, doesn't mean I'm not reading daily!

-=Vel=-
(once more into the fray!)

	01-07-2002 22:48									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Got at least a dash of creative juice back now, and am once more diving into the revision of the societal model, which will include, among other things, specialist citizens....not 100% sure if the b'crat will make the cut tho...lol...could be interesting...will play around with that! Also, having done some *serious* thinking about it, I can come up with no good way to avoid tracking at least some data at the citizen level. I can minimize that, but there's almost no way to make a realistic model tracking at the archetype level. Re: Training. We can call it training or something else....primarily, the reason we need it is that the mechanism provides a delaying break (only peasants with a 20% training rate can be "promoted") that keeps the economy from growing too quickly. The training function will also be instrumental in terms of those previously mentioned specialists. Still working on the particulars of that, and trying different stuff out (including ways of incorporating GP's into the societal model as a whole...bizzare thread of a thought), so just cos I'm not posting like a mad man over the next stretch of time, doesn't mean I'm not reading daily! -=Vel=- (once more into the fray!)

Well, Well, look who's back! I hope you recharged, amigo!

Oh and we changed to PGs cuz we were tired of saying that we liked GP!

You really need to check pryo's site. DK has a present for us.

R:PM

	01-07-2002 23:19									#128
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RPM,

Beaurocrats would be different than governors. Governors can have a mind of their own (ei run by the AI). If we get a decent AI, mabey we can even have governors that look out for their own interest, which, under extreme cases may mean REVOLT!!!

Anyway, Beaurocrats, agents of the kings, what ever we want to call them (in the simplest form) give you more PGs, or more PGs in a given area. Of course roads can help expand their PG influence. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Say you have a province over yonder and you want to do your buisness there, eg build a baracks. Now the people won't do it themselves, so either you go there, you hire a governor, or you hire an agent of the crown to do your bidding in that area. Governors are cheaper, but are AI run. Agents of the king always do your bidding, that is, gives you PGs in that province.

But if we go to this level, mabey one would have to have a king unit who represents you, and who has mucho PGs, but only applicable in the province he's in. Agents of the king are people and you can send them to other provinces. beaurocrats at a later level have more PGs, but require expensive buildings because they demand respect, or need an area to work or something. Enough Beaurocrats gives you complete control over everything you're allowed to control, which means you'll need tons of beaurocrats in large cities, and one or two in a small province.

So you invest in citizens. Of course some buildings are good to have too, and beaurocratic extensions of other buildings. Police station, sentate house, etc. If you don't, your agents and beauries will set up shop in the tavern and get little work done.

Is this very rough idea comming through, or do you want a simplistic in-game details?

	01-07-2002 23:55									#129
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Thanks for the welcome back! And, I'm heading over to the Pyromaniacs forum now to catch up on some reading there!

-=Vel=-

	02-07-2002 00:35									#130
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JM,

No, no, I'm getting it. I just need to roll it around for a while.

B's are citizens that you have to purchase to do you bidding and then perhaps require some maintanence.
Initially you get some PGs for being yourself, then additional PGs for the B's that you've bought and are maintaining with your budget.

That is good role playing of the populace, me likey!

...but, (I hate playing the there are some holes to be filled guy), conceivably $ are generated by the amount of provinces that you hold and the Xtra income generating buildings... More $s means more B's means more PGs.

If not this, then how is money generated, and what is to stop me from buying all the B's/PGs that I need to keep the streamroller going?

R:PM

	02-07-2002 23:50									#131
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL ...but, (I hate playing the there are some holes to be filled guy), conceivably $ are generated by the amount of provinces that you hold and the Xtra income generating buildings... More $s means more B's means more PGs. If not this, then how is money generated, and what is to stop me from buying all the B's/PGs that I need to keep the streamroller going? R:PM

Always have to find something bad don't you! Harumph. Harumph I say. But basically yes. Of course its just not the number of provs, but how efficeint your tax collecting is, and what you tax. Naturally, to control (to your whim) a large empire, you'll need more PGs and hence more Beaurocrats. But the number, and therefore cost of Beaurocrats should grow exponentially, making them really expensive for huge empires and taking up a large bulk of your tax income. So while you have more control, you can easily run into money problems inherent in large empires. A beaurocracy for a small country will be much smaller percentage of actual people and money compared to a large empire. I'm not good with numbers or something, but I'm sure someone could come up with a simple equation or something to do just what I'm proposing.

That sound good RPM?

	06-07-2002 00:07									#132
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Hmmm....Okay, I've been doing a LOT of thinking about this topic lately, as I've been wrestling with the next iteration of the societal model....let me throw this idea your direction:

Governance Points can be used for the following things:

1) Creating New Armies & adding to existing Armies (ie - buying troops)
2) Building Stuff in Provinces
3) Making changes to governmental sliders.

Each player has five provinces at game start. Let's arbitrarily say that he starts with 10 Governance Points per turn (points cannot be held and used later). That means that, money permitting, he could build troops from every province, and make a provincial improvement. Of course, at game start, the limiting factor is money. Not enough to do all that anyway.

Players get MORE Governance Points by building infrastructure in their provinces. This works out nicely for our purposes, cos one of the things you spend GP's on is building troops....the way to get more GP's is to build peacetime infrastruture...nice balance...nice symmetry so far.

Building infrastructure attracts bright minds to a given area, and one of those bright minds might petition to become an Agent of the King in that province. Agents of the King must come to you....they can't simply be hired hands. (% chance of this is 1% per build in the province....we could even vary this, tying it to the boost to org level that a building provides). When he presents himself for consideration, you can either confirm or deny him the post. Once a province has an Agent of the King operating from there, no further checks for Agents are made.

Salary: We could do this one of two ways....have a bit of salary negotiation going on, or just provide the AoK with a set upkeep (5gpt, or something).

Effect: Each Agent of the King gives you...you guessed it...2 additional GP's to do your thing with.

Thoughts?

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 01:06									#133
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This still leaves us with the problem of:

More Provinces = More Improvements = More Agents of the King = More GP's = More Armies = Total Domination


How's this for an idea to even things up? --->

Wouldn't it be better if the number of GP's you had avalable was calculated from the number of improvements you had per province.

Arbitrary example:
average of 1 improvement per province = 10 GP per turn
1.5 improvements per province = 15 GP per turn
2 improvements per province = 20 GP per turn.

This would mean that a small empire with lots of improvements per province would still get a lot of GP's. A large empire could achieve the same thing, because it would have more money to build more improvements, but because it had more provinces to build up then the ratios should stay approximately even.

	06-07-2002 01:16									#134
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I see your point. The way I outlined the system, that's exactly true....because it's a linear function. So....if we made it such that, in the case of a large empire, each provincial improvement you build only provides .75% or .5% per turn of attracting an agent, that means slower growth once you GET big, and correspondingly more focus on infrastructure. Thus, more provinces = more effort to grow further....fewer provinces = another growth spurt with relative ease.

That, combined with a 4 turn moratorium on drafting population points of newly conquered territories should pretty well squeeze the rush beast to death.

I hope....

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 01:23									#135
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Sounds like "Corruption [tm]" to me.

That's no bad thing BTW, just thought I'd point it out.

	10-07-2002 02:02									#136
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I personally do not see any way to do it without corruption.

What else will limit what the juggernaught can do?

Civ3 implemented it poorly, maybe we can make a go of it.

By the way, this is what I proposed originally, with my food, energy, and mining proposal.

Fortunately, everything else that folks have proposed, special citizens, goverment sliders, and the like all work with this as well.

	10-07-2002 02:10									#137
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL I personally do not see any way to do it without corruption. What else will limit what the juggernaught can do? Civ3 implemented it poorly, maybe we can make a go of it. By the way, this is what I proposed originally, with my food, energy, and mining proposal. Fortunately, everything else that folks have proposed, special citizens, goverment sliders, and the like all work with this as well.

Well, it seems to me that static governance points does a great job, without corruption! Every empire will be allowed to do the same amount of things no matter how big they are, but larger empires will have larger needs, so some will go unfulfilled. It is so elegant! There is no need for an imperfect corruption model.

With all due respect, why are so many people searching for some complicated bureaucracy/corruption model that makes this more expensive or makes this more wasteful etc to fight "bigger always better"?

	10-07-2002 03:23									#138
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The only problem that I see with the static model is that there is nothing that makes you want to expand...hence where is the wargame, dude!

	10-07-2002 04:53									#139
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Diplomat,

The idea of GPs isn't to eliminate bigger is always better, but to slow it down, fight it. While a static GP game might be fun and interesting, I would like to see something that actually works. Since GPs represent what the ruler can do, beaurocracies would naturally allow you to do more. I doubt the king of France would personally tell the workers to build a bank. Not even those directly beneath him! Unless its a really important bank.

Ooh, here's a quick idea. Its imperfect since I just thought of it now but...

The GPs you use to 'personally' command are static. BUT, getting bearocracts can increase it x amount in a region or certain area, but uses your 'personal' GPs cause you're telling him what to do. He does the nitty gritties (still controlable by you, but thats not the point). You can higher subordinate beaurocrats for that beaurocrat to expand the ability even further. Then the original Beaurocrat uses HIS personal GPs to order these subordinates around, and so forth. So while you gain GPs, the amount should grow slower and slower (the subordinates do more and more 'targeted' work), and become more and more expensive. The expense itself will help fight bigger is better. To simplify this model, you can 'request' x number of GPs and the AI hires all the necissary beaurocrats.

I'll try to refine this idea if there's interest. I do like your idea Diplo, but I want something more... interesting.

	30-07-2002 03:24									#140
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An idea I have on the subject is to link the sliders to what the player has already created with his society. A society that has heavily produced temples within its borders should find it more difficult to move away from theology over one that has made only a token effort at courting the church(s).

	31-07-2002 09:55									#141
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Nos, interesting idea...

You get a theocracy if you have tons of temples and cathedrals, you get a merchant run gov if you have tons more banks and guilds, etc. Feudal if you have largely towers and castles. Nice idea...

	31-07-2002 18:07									#142
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quote: Originally posted by JMarks Nos, interesting idea... You get a theocracy if you have tons of temples and cathedrals, you get a merchant run gov if you have tons more banks and guilds, etc. Feudal if you have largely towers and castles. Nice idea...

Yes, there's something attractive about the idea that you have to put your mouth where your money is. Building temples for the bonuses? Now you're stuck with a clergy. Building lots of castles? Much nobility to deal with, then.

Still, you should be able to set slider policies - that's change, after all... they should just "gravitate" toward what you have in terms of invested building if left on their own, and draging them away from this "built equilibrium" should cost in terms of unrest.

This would also provide for intrinsic equilibrium changes as the game progresses and you build new stuff - and interesting challenges built in, clergy not all that happy 'bout that new university, noble's not all that happy about the new trade depots.

	31-07-2002 22:53									#143
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I agree you should still be able to use the sliders despite your building choices to change things but the more heavily you are invested in a choice the more difficult it will be for you to change course from one extreme to another.

	01-08-2002 03:01									#144
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Home sick today, so my apologies for not getting in as many replies as normal, but I've been reading and I must say, the ideas to come out of this forum lately have been AWESOME! I'm duly adding much of this stuff to my next draft!

-=Vel=-

	02-08-2002 18:23									#145
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Putting your mouth where your money is....I LOVE it! And that, Moomin, wonderfully sums it up! GREAT idea, guys! I think it can be made to work wonderfully with the sliders.....you build your government by building certain types of improvements and shaping the lay of the land that way, and tweak it with the sliders....outstanding....

-=Vel=-