11-05-2002 07:00									#1
	Did the Axis have any chance at all in WWII? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Do you think that the Germans, Italians, and Japanese could have won World War II if they employed different strategies, or was the US too powerful?

	11-05-2002 07:05									#2
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Keeping the U.S. out of the war was their only hope. Ned

	11-05-2002 07:06									#3
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haven't you played Civ2? Christ, I can beat it with the Axis even on Deity

	11-05-2002 07:08									#4
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I can beat it with the Neutrals on dety. (I have!)

In the real world the americans consisted of a bit more than washington and new york.

	11-05-2002 07:11									#5
	Re: Did the Axis have any chance at all in WWII? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Do you think that the Germans, Italians, and Japanese could have won World War II if they employed different strategies, or was the US too powerful?

Without the US the Japanese would have driven the British back to Australia and made the Eatern Pacific their playground. The British would still have driven the Axis out of North Africa, and the Russians would have steamrollered them right to the Atlantic.

Without Russia in the picture (also assuming the Germans don't have to even defend on that front), the Germans could have taken North Africa. Britain would have held out, and you'd be left with a cold war across the Channel.

It's funny how you think the US did most of the work in WWII...

	11-05-2002 07:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior I can beat it with the Neutrals on dety. (I have!) In the real world the americans consisted of a bit more than washington and new york.

nope, not until WW3 with the Soviet Union in 1979

	11-05-2002 07:13									#7
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Germans could have, if they had a smarter leader who didn't commit so many men to racist genocide. Also, Britain was losing pretty bad, Germany COULD have offered Britain peace half-way through the war, and simply kept their gained territory in Europe.

The Japanese could have won as well, if they hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor. Seriously, I doubt the US would have cared whether or not Japan controlled China. FDR would have most likely never been able to convince the US public that entering the war was a must if not for Pearl Harbor.

	11-05-2002 07:15									#8
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Better question is: If Barbarossa never took place (in other words: Operation Hitler is a bleeding moron) could Germany have conquered England?

	11-05-2002 07:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by orange Better question is: If Barbarossa never took place (in other words: Operation Hitler is a bleeding moron) could Germany have conquered England?

I already answered that. I don't think so. They might have been able to pull it off if they'd thrown everything and the kitchen sink across the Channel in 1940.

To quote an idiot who spoke too soon "Hitler had missed the boat" by Barbarossa.

	11-05-2002 07:20									#10
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I've actually discussed this with my boss (he served in ww2, grunt) and he claimed that the Germans (or as he called them, "Krauts") had America "Out gunned, Out manned, and Outthought".

the out gunned part is sinmple to understand, German weaponry gave Germany a slight edge. Out manned didnt seem right to me, but he claims that in all the action he's seen, the Krauts had more men then expected / wanted. as for "out thought", i uppose he's talkign about Rommel and the Gang, but i'm not quite sure.

Overall, i think Germany had a good shot at winning their side of ww2, England was a formidable foe, and America pushed them over the edge. My Grandfather, who also served in ww2 said "The Germans Messed Up Big Time, and We Capitialized on Their Mistakes". i'm not sure what he's referring to, but i'm only a minor ww2 buff.

another way germany could have won would have been if they left russia alone for a while longer, although the US probably would have pushed russia to attack germany anyway.

on the japanese front, I think they had an extremely good shot at winning. if you ignore the nukes on hiro - naga, the Japanese were actually doing rather well for most of the war. The American "Island Hopping" strategy was slow comming. The japanese could have taken all of southeast asia, and mayeb a chunk of russia, but BOTH sides of the war are directly influenced by the other.

	11-05-2002 07:21									#11
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I already answered that. I don't think so. They might have been able to pull it off if they'd thrown everything and the kitchen sink across the Channel in 1940. To quote an idiot who spoke too soon "Hitler had missed the boat" by Barbarossa.

sorry, didnt' read that.

Well, I think sealion was similarly doomed to failure...and that the best plan would be to consolidate and make an agreement with the US and England somewhere around August 1942. Push sending forces to Japan...

However, barbarossa, if implemented earlier (as it was supposed to) may have proved more lucrative than it was after north africa...i still don't think they would have won, though...maybe just taken and held Leningrad, Stalingrad, maybe a stalemate over moscow

	11-05-2002 07:21									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Mikhail Germans could have, if they had a smarter leader who didn't commit so many men to racist genocide.

i know i love my genocide unbiased

	11-05-2002 07:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX another way germany could have won would have been if they left russia alone for a while longer, although the US probably would have pushed russia to attack germany anyway.

not likely...Communism was just as bitterly opposed as Fascism...and there'd be no reason to think Russia would go along with it, seeing as how the pact with Hitler was mutually beneficial...and the USSR desparately needed to industrialize, so it didn't want war.

	11-05-2002 07:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by orange not likely...Communism was just as bitterly opposed as Fascism...and there'd be no reason to think Russia would go along with it, seeing as how the pact with Hitler was mutually beneficial...and the USSR desparately needed to industrialize, so it didn't want war.

well the US pursuaded them to figth Japan, didn't they?

OH WHAT TANGELED WEBS WE WEAVE.

	11-05-2002 07:26									#15
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orange, the disparity of forces was most overwhelming near the start of the war. The UK didn't start taking the war seriously until the 8 awful weeks in the spring of 1940.

Once a cold war situation develops, you have to remember that Germany is only barely outproducing the British, and they have the headache of trying to keep the occupied territories from revolting. No matter how much time passes, you're still left with 20 miles of open water to cross with the best navy in the world just waiting for those nice, soft troop ships...

	11-05-2002 07:28									#16
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX well the US pursuaded them to figth Japan, didn't they? OH WHAT TANGELED WEBS WE WEAVE.

The Russian-Japanese fight lasted around a week, and they got a fair deal of territorial concessions out of it. Getting the Roosians to fight the Japanese in 1945 was a PR stunt.

	11-05-2002 07:28									#17
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The Axis was doomed so long as Hitler was calling the shots in Germany. He started strong....didn't have what it took to finish the game.

Should have sued for peace somewhere, and given his Japanese counterpart an a$$ whoopin for even contemplating the attack at Pearl.

If he hadn't been so hell bent on going after Russia, he could have consolidated his Euro gains, seen Japan rape most of China, and called it a day.

Greed.

Gets 'em every time.

-=Vel=-

	11-05-2002 07:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by orange Better question is: If Barbarossa never took place (in other words: Operation Hitler is a bleeding moron) could Germany have conquered England?

No. Germany didn't have a chance and even Hitler knew it. The US and Britain spent years preparing for the Channel crossing and it was still fairly hard with all that experience from making landings in the Pacific.

The German plan depended on the Luftwaffe acting as artillery support, bombing roads, beating Fighter Command, stopping the British Navy and most likely making Hitler's coffee all at the same time.

	11-05-2002 07:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx If he hadn't been so hell bent on going after Russia, he could have consolidated his Euro gains, seen Japan rape most of China, and called it a day.

leibensraum anyone? what nation had the most jews in it? russia.

ethnic cleansing his own nation wasnt enough, he didnt want any nasties immigrating into it later either,

	11-05-2002 07:30									#20
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No matter how much time passes, you're still left with 20 miles of open water to cross with the best navy in the world just waiting for those nice, soft troop ships...

And Germany didn't HAVE any troop ships. They requistioned river barges for the job. Hurt river shipping in the process.

	11-05-2002 07:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse orange, the disparity of forces was most overwhelming near the start of the war. The UK didn't start taking the war seriously until the 8 awful weeks in the spring of 1940. Once a cold war situation develops, you have to remember that Germany is only barely outproducing the British, and they have the headache of trying to keep the occupied territories from revolting. No matter how much time passes, you're still left with 20 miles of open water to cross with the best navy in the world just waiting for those nice, soft troop ships...

Did I stutter when I said that I think sealion was doomed to failure?

	11-05-2002 07:33									#22
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX well the US pursuaded them to figth Japan, didn't they? OH WHAT TANGELED WEBS WE WEAVE.

That was after the evil communist dictator became "Uncle Joe"

	11-05-2002 07:33									#23
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Like I said, Uber....Greed in one form or another. Should have left well enough alone....didn't he read about the last Euro to try Russia in the winter?

Shoulda studied those history books...tsk tsk....

-=Vel=-

	11-05-2002 07:34									#24
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You don't need that much shipping, as long as you can protect it. The distance is short enough that you can make multiple trips every day. Grab a beachhead with 25-30 000 troops, go back, get more...

I don't think it would have succeeded, but it was Hitler's best chance of getting across the Channel.

	11-05-2002 07:35									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Like I said, Uber....Greed in one form or another. Should have left well enough alone....didn't he read about the last Euro to try Russia in the winter? Shoulda studied those history books...tsk tsk.... -=Vel=-

it's pretty damn funny how NO ONE beats russia (except the mongols of course).

i made a note of that in my world domination plans. i re named them "My World Domination Minus Russia Plans".

goign to bed for the night. Physics Practice AP test tomorrow morning. later all.

	11-05-2002 07:35									#26
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quote: Originally posted by orange Did I stutter when I said that I think sealion was doomed to failure?

I'm saying that sea lion gave the best chance Hitler was ever going to have. The longer he waited, the worse things got.

	11-05-2002 07:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX leibensraum anyone?

what, 250,000 sq. miles of central Europe wasn't enough?

	11-05-2002 07:37									#28
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Say the Germans had made peace with America and Britain, could they have held their territory together for all these years?

	11-05-2002 07:37									#29
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Probably not, unless they evolved into a less repressive government.

	11-05-2002 07:38									#30
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm saying that sea lion gave the best chance Hitler was ever going to have. The longer he waited, the worse things got.

I agree, but I still don't think he ever had a shot at doing it successfully...even assuming he went for it right after Poland...or even right after Norway...