 |
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
quote:
The T-34 data is also inaccurate, none were in service in 39 or 1940.
The first prototype wasn't ready till September of 1940, so it wouldn't be availible in Poland or in the battle of France time period. |
Yup, and wasn't even used until Smolensk.
As to the Me-262, you're absolutely right.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Not necessarily. Germany held over 40% of the Russian population, including much of their breadbasket, by the end of 1941. If they had taken Moscow in Operation Typhoon (which is reasonable if they had a couple more weeks of good weather given that they wiped out about 7/8s of Moscow's defenders in Typhoon), they would have been capable of taking Leningrad, Stalingrad, and the Caucasus in 1942, and pushing further into Russia. |
No, frostbite decimated their army. Machines not designed to work in subfreezing temperaures broke. Failing to provide for the winterization of the troops and their equipment meant that the Germans had to virtually replace both before mounting any subsequent serious operations after Typhoon.
Suggesting that a few more weeks of good weather in December in central Russia might have helped the Germans along is like suggesting that a couple of weeks of a really good long jungle killing dry spell would have been real nice for General Westmorland in Vietnam. Russia is an icy hell in the winter. Southeast Asia is jungle all the time. This is just the way things are.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
Cav,
quote:
If England used chemical weapons Germany would retaliate. |
Yes, but against a small bridgehead, British chemical weapons would have been devastating, and the Germans could not invade or supply a large bridgehead.
quote:
On the subject of of a peace treaty with England: What if Germany had taken Dunkirk before the evacuations had started and Hitler had used the BEF as a bargining chip? "Surrender or I'll wipe put the BEF" |
Churchill would never have surrendered, period.
DS,
quote:
No, frostbite decimated their army. Machines not designed to work in subfreezing temperaures broke. Failing to provide for the winterization of the troops and their equipment meant that the Germans had to virtually replace both before mounting any subsequent serious operations after Typhoon. |
Yes of course - but the Russians, assuming a Typhoon defeat and the loss of Moscow, would have lost their transportation network and an additional 100-150,000 very good troops. Sure, they could have counterattacked, but with what? Half-trained conscripts and T-26s?
quote:
Suggesting that a few more weeks of good weather in December in central Russia might have helped the Germans along is like suggesting that a couple of weeks of a really good long jungle killing dry spell would have been real nice for General Westmorland in Vietnam. Russia is an icy hell in the winter. Southeast Asia is jungle all the time. This is just the way things are. |
No no, I'm suggesting that started 6 weeks EARLIER would have resulted in Moscow falling in October or November.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
Supposedly it was very muddy in western Russia until the end of May in 1941, so at best the operation could only have started 2 weeks earlier. The axis also absolutely had to have Yugoslavian roads and rails in order to extend their offensive start line south into Rumania, because the few roads and rails that passed directly from Hungary to Rumania were inadequate. Using Rumania as the southern start area was essential to the offensive in the south. If the axis had to attack the Ukraine from Hungary alone the southern offensive could have been very easily bottlenecked and blocked.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
quote:
If the axis had to attack the Ukraine from Hungary alone the southern offensive could have been very easily bottlenecked and blocked. |
Yes, but I argue that this would have been beneficial to the Germans - the Russians would have reinforced "success" in a theater that didn't matter. Taking Moscow was key because of the transportation network.
quote:
Supposedly it was very muddy in western Russia until the end of May in 1941, so at best the operation could only have started 2 weeks earlier. |
2 weeks could easily have made the difference.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
quote:
I don't think that England would risk German retaliations against their cities. |
I disagree. Read some of Churchill's writings.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
The T-34 data is also inaccurate, none were in service in 39 or 1940.
The first prototype wasn't ready till September of 1940, so it wouldn't be availible in Poland or in the battle of France time period.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-34.htm |
I said that it was already invented in1939, not that it was put in mass production in 1939.
A quote from your source:"The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, ..."
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
quote:
I said that it was already invented in1939, not that it was put in mass production in 1939.
A quote from your source:"The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, ..." |
The US had a prototype F-22 years ago...but we still have no more than 8 or so in service, and those are not combat ready in any significant sense.
Against Pz1s and IIs, Russia would have little need for T-34s anyway.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:19
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
The US had a prototype F-22 years ago...but we still have no more than 8 or so in service, and those are not combat ready in any significant sense. |
You are too slow then.
Quote:
"In August 1938 the High War Council, let by People's Commissar for Defense, K. J. Voroshilov, discussed the A-20 and T-32. Many on the Council disliked the T-32. In July 1939, the Kharkov Locomotive Factory had completed the prototypes for the A-20 and T-32. They were both then tested and it was decided to go with the T-32. On December 19, 1939, the People's Commissariat for Defense released the T-32 to the Red Army. It was soon designated the T-34.
Some models were sent to fight in the Finno-Russian war, but they arrived too late to be put into combat.
In June 1941, there were 1,225 that had been produced. First put into battle against the Germans in June 1941 at Grondno in Belorussia."
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/ussr/t34.html
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
Actually I'd recommend his WW2 5 volume history - The Gathering Storm, Their Finest Hour, The Grand Alliance, Hinge of Fate, and Closing the Ring.
While biased to a British perspective in many ways, they do provide good insight on British politics and thinking, which, IMO, is their greatest value.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
quote:
In June 1941, there were 1,225 that had been produced. First put into battle against the Germans in June 1941 at Grondno in Belorussia." |
Excuse me. Smolensk was the first time *significant* numbers were seen - and they were still brushed aside by the Germans, even though they had inferior tanks.
quote:
You are too slow then. |
I guess, but then again we have actually useful aircraft, such as the F-15, while the T-2 was utterly useless in 1941.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
What would?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:19
|
|
quote:
(The Moscow attacks were of a tactical nature, they never broke the German lines completely and followed through with a breakout in 41) |
Further, if we assume 100-200,000 more Russian losses in 1941 (in Typhoon), and Moscow falling, these attacks are probably repulsed by the Germans.
quote:
The Soviets still needed to work on larger armor formations, most were "tank heavy" (To many tanks, not enough motorized support infantry) and thus were vulnerable to defeat even with better equipment. |
Yes, and IMO the Germans had a much better grasp on fluid, mobile battle, hence their successful battles of Vernichtungsgedanke (encirclemant/annihilation) on the Eastern Front throughout the war.
Cav,
quote:
I know the local librarian fairly well. I'll try to talk her into finding me a copy. |
IMO they are well worth it, if you have the time to read through them.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
12-05-2002 09:10
|