11-05-2002 22:58									#1
	My Dream X-Pac: Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Current Abilities:
Expansionist (scout unit in beginning, can build more later, goody huts enhanced): change scout so that every terrain counts as one movement point, and can see two squares in all directions, except over mountains. On archipelago maps galleys and caravels have +1 movement point, ¾ chance of getting lost at sea.
Commercial (+1 gold in cities, +1 in metropolis (cumulative +2), less corruption): keep it the same
Militaristic (Military city improvements ½ price, units get promoted faster): conscripts become regular after they win, leaders more common
Industrious (Workers build faster, +1 shield in cities, +1 in metropolis (cumulative +2)): keep it the same
Religious (Temples and Cathedrals ½ price, 1 turn of anarchy): keep it the same
Scientific (Scientific buildings ½ price, gains bonus advance before each age): keep it the same
New Abilities: Agricultural (½ cost granaries, +1 food in cities, +1 in metropolis (cumulative +2), settlers need only one population point)
Urban (cheaper aqueducts and hospitals, mood buildings affect twice as many people, 3 villages needed to create a settler (as opposed to the 2 currently))
*Note: if Agricultural and Urban combined, then the normal cost of two villagers per settler is applied.

Wonder Changes:
Lighthouse costs 200 shields
Great Wall allows towns and cities to have walls (doesn’t improve city walls strength, though. Only doubles wall strength of town walls)
Longevity costs 700 shields
SETI Program costs 800 shields
United Nations costs 1200 shields

Cultures:
Native American:
Incan (Industrious, Expansionist) UU: Builder -> Worker who can work all terrain as fast as work grasslands, costs 20 shields (normal worker also available); Leader: Manco Capac or Huayna Capac; Capital: Cusco
Iroquois (Religious, Expansionist): same
Aztecs (Urban, Militaristic): same
West European:
American (Industrious, Urban): UU: Minuteman -> rifleman that costs 10 less shields
British/English (Expansionist, Urban): UU: Longbowman with +1 defense
French (Industrious, Commercial): Leader: Napoleon Bonaparte
East European:
Russian (Agricultural, Expansionist): Leader: Either Peter, Ivan IV, or Stalin
German (Militaristic, Scientific): same
Byzantine (Scientific, Religious):
UU: Cataphract -> cavalry with +1 attack; Leader: Constantine or Justinian; Capital: Constantinople
Mediterranean:
Spanish (Expansionist, Commercial): UU: Pirates -> +1 attack privateer
Romans (Expansionist, Scientific): same
Greeks (Scientific, Commercial): same
African:
Egyptian (Industrious, Religious): same
Mali (Agricultural, Commercial):
UU: swordsman with +1 speed, costs 40 shields; Leader: Mansa Musa; Capital: Mali
Zulu (Militaristic, Agricultural): same
Middle East:
Turks (Religious, Militaristic):
UU: Janissary -> rifleman with +1 attack; Leader: Mehmet II or Seljuk; Capital: Istanbul
Arabs (Religious, Urban): UU: Mamluk -> Horseman with +1 defense; Leader: Saladin or Harun al-Rashid; Capital: Mecca
Babylonians (Religious, Agricultural): same
“Central” Asia:
India (Commercial, Urban): Leader: Babar or some other guy
Mongol (Expansionist, Militaristic):
UU: horseman with +1 speed; Leader: Genghiz Khan; Capital: Qaraqorum
Persia (Scientific, Industrious): same
Far East:
China (Urban, Agricultural): Leader: some other guy, Mao okay though
Japanese (Militaristic, Urban): Leader: some other guy, Tokugawa last resort
Korean (Commerical, Agricultural):
UU: Turtle Boat -> 70 shield cost Ironclad; Leader: have no clue; Capital: Seoul, maybe another city

*****Note: This is all subject to change*****

Feel free to bash or praise, peace out

	12-05-2002 14:53									#2
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quote: Originally posted by TheBigTurkey Current Abilities: Expansionist (scout unit in beginning, can build more later, goody huts enhanced): change scout so that every terrain counts as one movement point, and can see two squares in all directions, except over mountains. On archipelago maps galleys and caravels have +1 movement point, ¾ chance of getting lost at sea. I would give the Scout one movement point and treat all terrain as roads, and possibly the two square vision range. As for sea exploration, what you have is too similar to the effects of the Great Lighthouse wonder. I would give Expansionist civs a special ship unit, the Coracle, with stats of 0.1.3 (no attack), cost 30 shields, available with Pottery (so Expansionists have it from the start), transports 2 units, and crosses coast and sea squares, but sinks in ocean.

quote: Great Wall allows towns and cities to have walls (doesn’t improve city walls strength, though. Only doubles wall strength of town walls)

So this means that when a city grows to size 7, its defense bonus DROPS from 100% to 50%? I don't like that.

quote: Incan (Industrious, Expansionist) UU: Builder -> Worker who can work all terrain as fast as work grasslands, costs 20 shields (normal worker also available); Leader: Manco Capac or Huayna Capac; Capital: Cusco

Faster-working workers is too much like the Industrial ability. I would give them a combat UU so they can use it to trigger their Golden Age.

quote: American (Industrious, Urban): UU: Minuteman -> rifleman that costs 10 less shields

10 shields is not much considering that normal Riflemen cost 80 shields. I would give the Minuteman stats of 4.6.2 to reflect their instant readiness.

quote: China (Urban, Agricultural): Leader: some other guy, Mao okay though

Either Sun Yat-Sen or Chiang Kai-Shek, who were leaders of the Nationalist Party would be good.

quote: Japanese (Militaristic, Urban): Leader: some other guy, Tokugawa last resort

Hirohito, of course.

quote: Korean (Commerical, Agricultural): UU: Turtle Boat -> 70 shield cost Ironclad; Leader: have no clue; Capital: Seoul, maybe another city

Saving 10 shields isn't worth much--how about having it buildable without coal and giving it an extra movement point?

	12-05-2002 21:18									#3
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quote: Either Sun Yat-Sen or Chiang Kai-Shek, who were leaders of the Nationalist Party would be good.

But they were never very powerful or important. There was not much chance of either of them beating the Communists.

What about an ancient emperor of the Ming dynasty or something of the sort?

	13-05-2002 03:00									#4
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Quote: So this means that when a city grows to size 7, its defense bonus DROPS from 100% to 50%? I don't like that.

Is it easier to defend a small town, or New York? Besides, currently you can't even have walls for cities or metropolises, just wanted to get them a way to be used.

Quote: Faster-working workers is too much like the Industrial ability. I would give them a combat UU so they can use it to trigger their Golden Age.

I see your point, but I couldn't think of one. If you can think of one, that would be great.

Quote: 10 shields is not much considering that normal Riflemen cost 80 shields. I would give the Minuteman stats of 4.6.2 to reflect their instant readiness.

Fine by me.

Quote: Either Sun Yat-Sen or Chiang Kai-Shek, who were leaders of the Nationalist Party would be good.

I don't like that. AFAIK, one of the things that Chinese people like about Mao is that he threw out the Nationalists and Japanese, and that helped him seize power. I would prefer an earlier Imperial ruler.

Quote: Hirohito, of course.

Again, I would rather have had an emperor from a long time ago, but its okay for me, since he was an important figure in Japanese history for a long time.

Quote: Saving 10 shields isn't worth much--how about having it buildable without coal and giving it an extra movement point?

I'll just add a defensive point instead.

Thanks for the criticism. Very helpful. I'd like some on the CSA's, however, and how I should change them. Peace out.

	13-05-2002 03:14									#5
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Using Hirohito for Japan is almost as bad as using Mao for China. Tokugawa (Ieyasu) is a decent choice: He united the country, finally, ending hundreds of years of civil war!

Is the Korean Turtle Boat really from the same era as Ironclads?

	13-05-2002 03:59									#6
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Ah but Miznia, the opposing forces to Tokugawa would hate him if he was included in a computer game
All great leaders are unpopular with someone.

	13-05-2002 06:48									#7
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An ancient chinese emporer to replace Mao would be good. There are lots of mighty and wise emporers to choose from. Shi Huang Di would be a nice pick. Though, Sun Yat-Sen is good, at least better than Mao.

	13-05-2002 08:32									#8
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The reason I don't like Mao is that he is an Ataturk clone: saves the country, then screws it over. That's why I hope that, if Turkey is in the X-Pac, they have Mehmet II as the ruler, not Ataturk, but have Ataturk as a leader. Same thing about Mao. He should be a leader, not a ruler.

	13-05-2002 20:28									#9
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Ming dynasty? Chinese leader should be Liu Pang (Han dynasty founder) or the CHin guy, forgot his name.

	14-05-2002 03:25									#10
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I assume that when you say leader, you mean Mao's current position, civman2000.

	14-05-2002 03:52									#11
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Perhaps a good Incan UU could be the Eagle Warrior (3/2/2, replaces Swordsman). Aparently they were relatively strong infantry, but were also fast. And this is just before steel armoured infantry come out (except for Legionaries), which they were weaker against.

And I think the Bowman (Babylonian UU) should be changed to 3/1/1 instead of 2/2/1. That way when they upgrade to Longbowman they don't have their defense LOWERED.

And personally, I think that unless they change EVERY UU, all UU should be regular units with either A, D, OR M increased by 1, to keep with the balance already here.

	14-05-2002 05:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by SwitchMoO Perhaps a good Incan UU could be the Eagle Warrior (3/2/2, replaces Swordsman). Aparently they were relatively strong infantry, but were also fast. And this is just before steel armoured infantry come out (except for Legionaries), which they were weaker against.

Sorry, but never exist an "Eagle warrior" or something similar. Infact, there is no eagles here (yes, i live in Peru).
The only big birds flying around the mountains are the Condors. They're amazing, managing to live at 4500+ mts. in the andes.
Incas fought and conquer their neighbors with axeman and archers. Maybe some improved version of archer? (3.1.1) for an UU.. but i think this is some kind of imbalance (cheaper and no resources required compared with swordman, and same attack. Even giving and extra point of movement they become a cheaper horseman.).
For History accuracy, Incan UU may belong to the middle ages. The incan golden age (when their territory goes from Panama to Chile and Argentina, covered nearly 50% of the South American continent) was around 1350 - 1450 AC (When Pachacuteq rules the Empire). Francisco Pizarro arrive in 1432.
If an Incan civilization will be included, i hope Firaxis don't mess with the cities names, like Activision did in CTP. Capital is Qosqo (Cuzco is spanish version) and there's a lot of towns not belong exactly to the Inca Empire (Pucara, Chan-Chan, Chavin, Paracas, Nazca, Pachacamac, Carachi). They belong to older ancient-peruvian cultures (settled around 3000 BC.). But if the purpouse is represent the South American ancient cultures (like they did with the Iroquois IIRC) then there's no problem at all.

Cya

	14-05-2002 06:43									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SwitchMoO And I think the Bowman (Babylonian UU) should be changed to 3/1/1 instead of 2/2/1. That way when they upgrade to Longbowman they don't have their defense LOWERED. And personally, I think that unless they change EVERY UU, all UU should be regular units with either A, D, OR M increased by 1, to keep with the balance already here.

I like that change of the bowman. I have only tried to use the babs once, and found their UU to be pretty lame. Weak on offence, weak on defense. If it were 3/1/1 then at least it would be a great early attack weapon, like an earlier MW with one movement point. As it is, 2/2/1 means a pretty mediocre unit,IMO.

Would this be overpowering in Ancient times, until Pikemen? I don't know, they would be strong for so long, equal to the best in the age, and very cheap with no resource required. Hmm, maybe have to rethink that earlier position.

	14-05-2002 13:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hey Nuctemeron, why don't you join us at the Sapnsih Civ Site forum? (Middle of main forums page - Spanish allowed there We always are in need of South American hermanos over there!

	15-05-2002 01:51									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Nuctemeronn Sorry, but never exist an "Eagle warrior" or something similar. Infact, there is no eagles here (yes, i live in Peru). The only big birds flying around the mountains are the Condors. They're amazing, managing to live at 4500+ mts. in the andes. Incas fought and conquer their neighbors with axeman and archers. Maybe some improved version of archer? (3.1.1) for an UU.. but i think this is some kind of imbalance (cheaper and no resources required compared with swordman, and same attack. Even giving and extra point of movement they become a cheaper horseman.). For History accuracy, Incan UU may belong to the middle ages. The incan golden age (when their territory goes from Panama to Chile and Argentina, covered nearly 50% of the South American continent) was around 1350 - 1450 AC (When Pachacuteq rules the Empire). Francisco Pizarro arrive in 1432. If an Incan civilization will be included, i hope Firaxis don't mess with the cities names, like Activision did in CTP. Capital is Qosqo (Cuzco is spanish version) and there's a lot of towns not belong exactly to the Inca Empire (Pucara, Chan-Chan, Chavin, Paracas, Nazca, Pachacamac, Carachi). They belong to older ancient-peruvian cultures (settled around 3000 BC.). But if the purpouse is represent the South American ancient cultures (like they did with the Iroquois IIRC) then there's no problem at all. Cya

Sorry. I just got that from AOE2 XP. That's a unit that both Aztecs and Mayans had, and I thought that Incans were in the same general area........so just blame my ignorance. Or Ensemble, if that's completely false.

	15-05-2002 02:25									#16
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My dream is that X-Pac would change his name back to Syxx.

	15-05-2002 02:27									#17
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warriors of SOME trabe were called eagle warriors i think though...they're in that really bad "new world" scenario in MGE

	15-05-2002 17:47									#18
	Re: My Dream X-Pac: Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by TheBigTurkey Current Abilities: Expansionist (scout unit in beginning, can build more later, goody huts enhanced): change scout so that every terrain counts as one movement point, and can see two squares in all directions, except over mountains. On archipelago maps galleys and caravels have +1 movement point, ¾ chance of getting lost at sea.

Hmmm...I would give Scouts a vision range of 2 and give them the "all terrain as roads" ability with one movement point (moves three squares per turn). Your ship bonus seems a bit too much like giving them the Great Lighthouse wonder. I would give them their own special ship unit, the Coracle. This unit would be 0.1.3 (no attack), cost 30 shields, carry two land units, and be able to cross Coast and Sea squares (but sink on Ocean). It would be buildable from the start of the game for Expansionist civs.

quote: Militaristic (Military city improvements 1/2 price, units get promoted faster): conscripts become regular after they win, leaders more common

Yes, I would like to see Militaristic civs get Great Leaders about twice as often as otherwise.

quote: New Abilities: Agricultural (1/2 cost granaries, +1 food in cities, +1 in metropolis (cumulative +2), settlers need only one population point)

I like this ability--it goes well with the Commercial and Industrial abilities.

quote: Urban (cheaper aqueducts and hospitals, mood buildings affect twice as many people, 3 villages needed to create a settler (as opposed to the 2 currently)) *Note: if Agricultural and Urban combined, then the normal cost of two villagers per settler is applied.

This sounds interesting too. I also like the Maritime ability suggested in other threads (half cost for marine improvements--Harbor, Coastal Fortress, Offshore Platform--all ships get +1 movement and vision range of 3 squares instead of 2).

quote: Incan (Industrious, Expansionist) UU: Builder -> Worker who can work all terrain as fast as work grasslands, costs 20 shields (normal worker also available); Leader: Manco Capac or Huayna Capac; Capital: Cusco

I like the "Eagle Warrior" idea above, although if you don't like the name, it can always be called something else instead. Still, a 3.2.2 variant of the Swordman would be good, especially now that fast units retreat only part of the time.

	18-05-2002 11:16									#19
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Byzantium is a great idea, really. The 'what if' prospects are endless.

As for the Mongol UU:

Give them China's current UU, rename it to something appropriate for the Golden Horde times, and change China's UU to a Crossbowman (China was using Crossbows a hundred years before Europe). Have it replace Longbowmen, and give it the fast attack jaguar warriors have.