12-05-2002 03:13									#1
	Viking Suggestion Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have a small suggestion ...

if Vikings are a new civ, and
if their UU is a berserker-swordsman, not a longboat-ship...

I think it would be very cool to give the berserker the marine ability to attack from ship.

I got this idea from a book I read comparing Vikings to marines. Here is a quote from the start of the chapter on this:

"The common perception of marines is of soldiers who live on ships yet who fight on sea and land. ... if one had to categorise these Norsemen by modern terminology it would be difficult to find a more appropriate, if crude, definition than that of a marine; probably the first true marine in military history and certainly the most effective."

This would simulate their coastal raiding, and help to make the berserker more unique from the several other swordsmen. And best of all, since the marine function is already there, it would be very easy to do!

Just a small detail, but I think it would be a cool touch. Thanks for reading.

	12-05-2002 04:06									#2
	Re: Viking Suggestion Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by nato I have a small suggestion ... if Vikings are a new civ, and if their UU is a berserker-swordsman, not a longboat-ship... I think it would be very cool to give the berserker the marine ability to attack from ship. I got this idea from a book I read comparing Vikings to marines. Here is a quote from the start of the chapter on this: "The common perception of marines is of soldiers who live on ships yet who fight on sea and land. ... if one had to categorise these Norsemen by modern terminology it would be difficult to find a more appropriate, if crude, definition than that of a marine; probably the first true marine in military history and certainly the most effective." This would simulate their coastal raiding, and help to make the berserker more unique from the several other swordsmen. And best of all, since the marine function is already there, it would be very easy to do! Just a small detail, but I think it would be a cool touch. Thanks for reading.

theres a whole discussion on that in a thread called "Why the XP needs the Vikings" or something.

	12-05-2002 05:45									#3
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Gee sorry Uber. I figured that would be a thread about why they should be one of the new civs ... mine was just a tiny detail thing IF they were in, not an argument for them to be in. Just a little note I thought was cool, no big deal.

I should have put it there instead.

	12-05-2002 08:05									#4
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I wonder if they could make two UUs for each Civ in the XP? that way Vikings could have Berserkers & Longships, & we could add some other units, like American Sherman tanks, German U-Boats, & Japanese Sub-Carriers...

	12-05-2002 09:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by nato I have a small suggestion ... if Vikings are a new civ, and if their UU is a berserker-swordsman, not a longboat-ship... I think it would be very cool to give the berserker the marine ability to attack from ship. Just a small detail, but I think it would be a cool touch. Thanks for reading.

I agree 100%. Not only do I think that this will make the Vikings UU true to life, but it will also be a nice change from the standard add one point to a stat. It would give the Vikings a distinct advantage to choosing them, and would reflect their sea-raider nature. Plus, sea based UU suck. (look at the Man-o-War)

	12-05-2002 17:19									#6
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Two UUs would be very cool ... as long as they were both really deserving choices, and not made up ones to get two UUs per civ.

To be honest I think the Longboat would be a better historical choice than a Berserker ... but in game terms, like nationalist saids, it would probably not be very useful.

Unless it was like a Galley that could travel as safely as a Caravel maybe, but that might be too powerful.

Of course the marine ability is not too useful either! But its a cool touch.

Anyway, I'm sorry the idea was old news ... I should have read the viking thread before posting. But at least I had a cool on-topic book quote!

	12-05-2002 18:30									#7
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as many have said on the big vikings thread, that is a very very very weak advantage to give them

	12-05-2002 19:34									#8
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Vikings could start with map making tho, giving them boats way before everyone, this could be an acceptable compromise.

	12-05-2002 21:44									#9
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quote: Two UUs would be very cool ... as long as they were both really deserving choices, and not made up ones to get two UUs per civ.

Two would be good- but only if both of them were too weak, and only added up equaled the UU's of the other civ's UU's

For example: The longboat has only a +1 attack or +1 unit transported... Wheras the Bezerker is technically only a legion rated unit with amphibious assaults.

Then, if combined, they become powerful, but alone, the two are no more than regular units that are slightly advanced.

	12-05-2002 23:32									#10
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If they make two UUs, they should separate them (timewise) as much as possible. (You can't really make a Modern Age Babalonian UU)

	13-05-2002 00:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark If they make two UUs, they should separate them (timewise) as much as possible. (You can't really make a Modern Age Babalonian UU)

you could overgeneralize and say that teir modern equilivient is Iraq (despite obvious differences).

	13-05-2002 00:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX you could overgeneralize and say that teir modern equilivient is Iraq (despite obvious differences).

Does that mean that Babylon gets Chemical Weapons?

	13-05-2002 03:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark If they make two UUs, they should separate them (timewise) as much as possible. (You can't really make a Modern Age Babalonian UU)

And that would make it necessary for it to be in the same era for may civilizations.

The way to balance it may be to make the UU's stronger if they are separated by a longer period of time.

	18-05-2002 11:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Metaliturtle Vikings could start with map making tho, giving them boats way before everyone, this could be an acceptable compromise.

Acceptable compromise? Map making is 3 or 4 techs down the line. Even if you research only the techs needed to get it, it will still take many many turns for a normal civ to get it.
You'd either have to really screw with the tech tree (having the vikings research the techs that ARE REQUIRED FOR map making, after they already have it), or have them start out with all 6 or so technologies.

You might as well just sign the game over to the Vikings. They'll immediately make contact with other civs on Continental or Island maps, ruining the exploration part of the game, and usurp land on other people's continents before they have a chance to expand.

Besides...I don't recall anything about the vikings inventing boats in the stone age. It's really really unrealistic.

	19-05-2002 23:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Mikhail Acceptable compromise? Map making is 3 or 4 techs down the line. Even if you research only the techs needed to get it, it will still take many many turns for a normal civ to get it. You'd either have to really screw with the tech tree (having the vikings research the techs that ARE REQUIRED FOR map making, after they already have it), or have them start out with all 6 or so technologies. You might as well just sign the game over to the Vikings. They'll immediately make contact with other civs on Continental or Island maps, ruining the exploration part of the game, and usurp land on other people's continents before they have a chance to expand. Besides...I don't recall anything about the vikings inventing boats in the stone age. It's really really unrealistic.

I don't know a thing about how the game is coded, might it be possible to give civ-specific bonuses to specific techs? Like the vikings might get Map Making at half cost, or even Map Making and it's prereqs at half cost but all other tech at normal? Or oeven at a penalty to balance it (like Literature costs more or some other important tech costs more)? So Vikings wouldn't get Map Making right away, but they would get it before other civs? Is this even possible?

	19-05-2002 23:23									#16
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wyrlachlan- that's a great idea- the Vikings could have the beserker or the longship (one or the other) AND have Map Making at half cost- it would add a new dimension to the game...

Civ-specific techs!

	20-05-2002 02:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud wyrlachlan- that's a great idea- the Vikings could have the beserker or the longship (one or the other) AND have Map Making at half cost- it would add a new dimension to the game... Civ-specific techs!

i always thought that, but i never saw it through.

i was thinking (if you could bear it) to make another Knight based UU for the vikings.

i'd make the berzerker a knight (like the samuari) just because i'd use an amphibious attack with a 4 or 5 attack more than i would with a 3.

	20-05-2002 02:41									#18
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I think that Longships could be cool, if that's a unit with ability to cross sea like Caravel.

	20-05-2002 17:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud wyrlachlan- that's a great idea- the Vikings could have the beserker or the longship (one or the other) AND have Map Making at half cost- it would add a new dimension to the game... Civ-specific techs!

The idea of civ-specific techs is really great! Techs should be cheaper for civs according to their specific abilities (Writing for scientific civs, Map Making for expansionist, etc.). You could then even take away the two free techs at the beginning. The civs would maintain their specific touch throughout the whole game.

However, it might be difficult to make these benefits balanced. There would be a lot of scientific advances, but only few commercial ones in the early game. And industrial civs would be overpowered in the industrial era. For that reason civ-specific abilities could be limited to one per era or 3-4 per game.

	20-05-2002 18:48									#20
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It would make sense to me to have the tech bonus applied to whatever tech allows the UU. Though then you'd run into the problem of many civs have the same req for a UU (knight) so it wouldn't really make them unique. But I like the 1 tech per age getting the bonus, and maybe 2 per age for scientific civs.

I think that the minimum turns for the bonus techs should also be removed since many people max out tech and are producing all techs in 4 turns by the end game, so a tech bonus would equal money, not faster science.

Does anyone familiar with the code know how feasible this would be?

	22-05-2002 07:38									#21
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Well the Berserk(er)'s in, now we just need to see if he's got Anphibious Attack...

	22-05-2002 07:43									#22
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If not, just add it...

	22-05-2002 13:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark I wonder if they could make two UUs for each Civ in the XP? that way Vikings could have Berserkers & Longships, & we could add some other units, like American Sherman tanks, German U-Boats, & Japanese Sub-Carriers...

American Sherman tanks? Why would you want a UU with lower stats than the vanilla tank?


C.