14-05-2002 04:14									#91
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Well, no... not yet... but having an American President say that really means something.

You just have to convince Congress now .

	14-05-2002 04:19									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi He has greatly improved relations with Russia, in spite of cancelling IBM.

My understanding is that relations with Russia have actually deteriorated seriously, to the point that Putin is expected to be defeated in the next election (for being America's whipping boy), unless he cancels them altogether and decides to make himself dictator (which is possible).

quote: He has also improved relations with Mexico.

I think we should credit Fox for that as well.

quote: He has gotten the consent of the Phillipines and Georgia(The country not the state) to allow us to help them fight terror in their countries.

The Phils had to be leaned on, and they still won't allow Americans to do the fighting (and Abu Sayeff aren't terrorists, they're bandits). Georgia isn't in the War on Terrorism. They want the US in to help crush some local uprisings as well as offset Russian influence in the region. This is one of the events that has really hurt Putin at home.

	14-05-2002 04:23									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave In the USA of an alternate dimension, perhaps? He's gutting environmental regulations, allowing the energy companies (enron included) to rewrite policy. His hands-off approach in the ME was a big factor in allowing the current firestorm. He's blocking funds to UN sexual health initiatives simply because they mention abortion as a birth control alternative. His attorney general has pi$$ed on the constitution in allowing the unlawful detention of over 1000 people on immigration violations, among other violations of civil liberties. I mean, come on, have you seen this guy do a press conference? He looks like a deer caught in headlights. I wont talk about that affable smirk of his As for his support after 9/11, Gumby himself could have garnered 90% approval ratings.

Detroit, you seem to have so issues that you care for passionately. Rather than debate the merits of these issues, I would just note that the idea of being in the center is to greatly offend as few people as possible. That is where I see George Bush now. Obviously, even you would not consider yourself in the center.

As to the press conference bit, I thought that Nixon was also atrocious, but many now consider him to have been a good president, albeit, a tragically flawed one.

Ned

	14-05-2002 04:25									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Clinton was the supreme politician. He rose from Governor of a small, poor southern state to challenge (and defeat) an incumbent President with historically high approval ratings after the "Gulf War". After the Republican takeover of Congess in 1994 (when the Republicans thought they could nominate a monkey for Pres. and win) Clinton rebounded and proved to the American people that the Democrats are where the people are when it comes to the issues: education, healthcare, social security, gun control, sexual freedom (okay everyone can make the jokes in their heads - you don't have to post them ). Clinton came back and trounced Bob Dole in the 1996 election. Clinton survived the Republican instigated impeachment process. The people saw impeachment for what it was: an attempt to tarnish a distinguished President with largely (not completely) untrue allegations, a la Paula Jones. History will record Clinton as a far more honorable man than Ronald Reagan (who broke the law and sold arms to Iran, and broke the law by continuing to support UNITA in Angola and their Apartheid allies) and Richard Nixon (who tried to shatter the very foundations of American democracy for his own, selfish gain). Clinton, love him or hate him, he is a master politician.

Revisionist.

Ned

	14-05-2002 04:25									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion what was McCain like then?

McCain is actually as far to the right as Bush, on almost every stance. What differentiates McCain from Bush is that McCain has integrity, and lots of it. Unlike Bush, McCain is not part of the old boys network, isn't beholden to them, and takes his stances because that's what he genuinely believes in, not because pollsters or lobyists or Daddy's oil buddies told him to say. While his politics are far to the right of the mainstream, American's love a man with integrity.

	14-05-2002 04:27									#96
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quote: My understanding is that relations with Russia have actually deteriorated seriously, to the point that Putin is expected to be defeated in the next election (for being America's whipping boy), unless he cancels them altogether and decides to make himself dictator (which is possible).

Say what? Putin is relatively safe... and as for examples of US/Russian working together, check the agreement on nuclear weapons today.

quote: I think we should credit Fox for that as well.

Getting rid of the PRI would have made better relations between the US for any President, yes .

	14-05-2002 04:34									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Fitz Bias in favor of the Palestinians is a very questionable term for his Middle East policy. In fact, he is still biased in favor of Israel, as the U.S. government has been for what seems like forever. Just because he is slowly lessening the bias against the Palestinians does not not mean he is biased in favor of them. Just because he has taken one step in a one-thousand step gulf does not make him any less of a Neanderthal than the other conservatives in the United States. He is nowhere neer the center of the U.S. polical spectrum (nor was Clinton), he has just managed to draw himself more towards the center than his Neanderthalic extreme right voter base would like. (That's a good word, isn't it? ) And I respectfully submit that it isn't. I grudgingly voted poor for him, as so far he has managed to do some good in his co-called "war against terrorism", despite my deep suspicion about his motives. But domestically he has been very poor (although not a disaster yet). The tax cut was just the beginning. Poor environmental decisions, lots of pro-business bias, lots of high ground moral rhetoric to excuse the typically me-me-me Republican attitude, military build up, etc, etc. Not that I think Gore (or a democrat) would have been a de facto improvement. I judge him by his actions (and, obviously, my standards), and while I must say he gives "tone" to the presidency, something that Clinton certainly didn't do, he has consistantly catered to the segment of the American population that only looks out for number one (ie themselves). I can't blame him, since he is a Republican, and therefore a member of a group almost exclusively composed that segment of the population, but that doesn't stop it from disgusting me.

Fitz, I think you and I simply disagree on where the center is. As to the extremes on the left and right, I view the extreme left as deluded idealists willing to commit mass murder to advance their causes and the extreme right as racist Neanderthals willing to commit mass murder to advance their causes. There is a common problem with both extremes.

On the ME, I don't believe demanding that Israel stand down in the face of terror is pro-Israel at all. You and I will strongly disagree on that issue.

Ned

	14-05-2002 04:47									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to the extremes on the left and right, I view the extreme left as deluded idealists willing to commit mass murder to advance their causes and the extreme right as racist Neanderthals willing to commit mass murder to advance their causes. There is a common problem with both extremes.

Good on yer! I love that characterization. Mental picurtures of dazed looking hippies and low-browed apemen popped into my head as I read that sentance. I agree there is a common problem with the extremes, so Bush p*ssing one of them off bothers me not in the slightest. That doesn't mean he is in the center though, just more centrist than before.

quote: Originally posted by Carver Clinton, love him or hate him, he is a master politician.

Hard to disagree with that. But I would have to disagree with your comments about Clinton going down as better than Reagan. I think half the U.S. will continue to love Clinton's guts and herald him as the second coming of christ, and the other will eternally hate and d*mn him as the anti-christ. Identical to Reagan really.

Although, I've personally managed to kick off my parents indocrination of Reagan being the worst president ever (to the point where I can say I think he was bad for the country). At the same time, while I think Clinton was generally good for the country, he wasn't no saint and I certainly wish there had been someone better in office (unfortunately we ended up with Bush ).

	14-05-2002 05:07									#99
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quote: Detroit, you seem to have so issues that you care for passionately. Rather than debate the merits of these issues, I would just note that the idea of being in the center is to greatly offend as few people as possible. That is where I see George Bush now. Obviously, even you would not consider yourself in the center.

FYI, I'm a working-class Democrat, but I do cross the spectrum on some issues. The fact is you stated that intelligence was not the only criteria for leadership but courage, honor, integrity, etc. Fair enough. However, I fail to see how Bush possesses one iota of those attributes you mentioned. I dont give the man a free pass because of 9/11, and I thought your post was looking at his presidency through some rose-colored glasses.

quote: McCain is actually as far to the right as Bush, on almost every stance. What differentiates McCain from Bush is that McCain has integrity, and lots of it.

A fair assessment. I especially appreciate the fact that he's attempted to distance the Republican party from the Religious Right. On that merit alone, I would probably cross party lines and support him again.

DAve

	14-05-2002 06:34									#100
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I'm with you on McCain, Dave (and Chegitz). All I'm asking is a little honor in our leaders.

I found a February 2000 (height of primary season) Newsweek poll very telling. They asked people who they would vote for between Gore & Bush. The result was a tie. They asked people who they would vote for between Gore & McCain. McCain beat Gore like a redheaded stepchild. And yet, the Republican Establishment put all their efforts, all their support behind Bush. They'd rather chance losing with an easily-manipulated puppet than be assured victory with a guy who won't be controlled by them.

	14-05-2002 06:38									#101
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That's disingenious, Guy... can't you see that the establishment agreed much more with Bush than McCain. It didn't and still doesn't like campaign finance reform or his belief on guns, etc. It was never about who to 'control', because frankly the establishment is getting a little pissy with Bush right now.

	14-05-2002 06:45									#102
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Of course the Establishment agrees with Bush. They bought every opinion he has.

	14-05-2002 07:01									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's disingenious, Guy

Grrr. No such word. If you mean "disingenuous", then you're saying that Guynemer is insincere.

	14-05-2002 07:05									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave FYI, I'm a working-class Democrat, but I do cross the spectrum on some issues. The fact is you stated that intelligence was not the only criteria for leadership but courage, honor, integrity, etc. Fair enough. However, I fail to see how Bush possesses one iota of those attributes you mentioned. I dont give the man a free pass because of 9/11, and I thought your post was looking at his presidency through some rose-colored glasses. A fair assessment. I especially appreciate the fact that he's attempted to distance the Republican party from the Religious Right. On that merit alone, I would probably cross party lines and support him again. DAve

Dave, I believe Bush has some core issues he fights for, but on most, he just stands above the fray and let's the Repubs and Dems hack away at each other. His core issues are the war on terror, taxes and education.

I believe his hesitancy on the environment is related to skepticism concerning the severity of the environmental problems vs. the a genuine concern about the severity of impact on the economy. For most environmentalists, this kind of thinking is heresy. I think his approach is "centrist." It is certainly not anti-environment.

Opps, I almost forgot: He seems passionate about "cloning." I think most Americans agree with him.

Ned

	14-05-2002 07:31									#105
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quote: I believe his hesitancy on the environment is related to skepticism concerning the severity of the environmental problems vs. the a genuine concern about the severity of impact on the economy. For most environmentalists, this kind of thinking is heresy.

And for people who has the intelligence of a five year old, it is also called 'stupidity'.

Before the election, I declared that I'd rather vote for a homeless crackaddict as president than Bush. The reason was that he declared that he believed in creationism. I was lambasted because I had such a 'one issue view'. But it is not only creationism par se, it is the kind of midnset one must have to accept creationism, namely to put belief over science.

And this translates DIRECTLY to the environmental scene. Bush doesn't believe in global warming, despite a more or less unified scientific body behind it. He might call it 'hesitancy' or 'just wanting to make sure' or whatever, but what it all comes back to is that he chooses to BELIEVE that global warming isn't real.

I'm just happy that his delusions aren't grander...

then again, I guess he's to dumb to have great delusions...

	14-05-2002 07:47									#106
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quote: Of course the Establishment agrees with Bush. They bought every opinion he has.

	14-05-2002 07:54									#107
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He gets a 2 out of 10 from me. Overall, I'd say his administration will prove to be a disaster for the US that we spend years undoing the damage from. Thankfully the conservatives are even starting to get tired of his spineless idiocy. Boo to President Chene--er, Bush...

And come on, we all know he isn't really making the decisions. Daddy's got that all nice and taken care of, thanks to Mssrs. Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld.

	14-05-2002 07:59									#108
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quote: Thankfully the conservatives are even starting to get tired of his spineless idiocy

Um... do you actually know what the conservative want?!

They are mad because he's moving to the center. They are mad that he isn't telling Israel to go all out. They are mad he isn't vetoing the campaign finance reform bill. They are mad that he is spending more on social programs.

quote: And come on, we all know he isn't really making the decisions. Daddy's got that all nice and taken care of, thanks to Mssrs. Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld.

It's nice the left thinks this. Only serves to underestimate Bush as he kicks your asses .

	14-05-2002 08:19									#109
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quote: Only serves to underestimate Bush as he kicks your asses

Nah, he must learn to tie his own shoes before that happens...

	14-05-2002 08:27									#110
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I've never, ever misunderestimated the ass-kicking power of Bush's staff. Rove is about as crafty a political snake as they come, and he's been calling the shots for a long time. Bush, however, is a goober.

	14-05-2002 08:30									#111
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quote: I've never, ever misunderestimated the ass-kicking power of Bush's staff. Rove is about as crafty a political snake as they come, and he's been calling the shots for a long time. Bush, however, is a goober.

Like I said, you underestimated Bush, like Gore did in the debates. He's much more intelligent that people give him credit for, and he'll make you pay when you underestimate him.

	14-05-2002 08:48									#112
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu And for people who has the intelligence of a five year old, it is also called 'stupidity'. Before the election, I declared that I'd rather vote for a homeless crackaddict as president than Bush. The reason was that he declared that he believed in creationism. I was lambasted because I had such a 'one issue view'. But it is not only creationism par se, it is the kind of midnset one must have to accept creationism, namely to put belief over science. And this translates DIRECTLY to the environmental scene. Bush doesn't believe in global warming, despite a more or less unified scientific body behind it. He might call it 'hesitancy' or 'just wanting to make sure' or whatever, but what it all comes back to is that he chooses to BELIEVE that global warming isn't real. I'm just happy that his delusions aren't grander... then again, I guess he's to dumb to have great delusions...

Spoken like a true believer. Ned

	14-05-2002 08:57									#113
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Gore underestimated Bush in the debates? Hardly. Bush came off as an idiot. So did Gore. The media just overestimated Al.

	14-05-2002 08:58									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I've never, ever misunderestimated the ass-kicking power of Bush's staff. Rove is about as crafty a political snake as they come, and he's been calling the shots for a long time. Bush, however, is a goober. Like I said, you underestimated Bush, like Gore did in the debates. He's much more intelligent that people give him credit for, and he'll make you pay when you underestimate him.

No, Bush was not underestimated in the debates, Gore was overestimated a great deal. Bush's team did a brilliant job in downplaying Bush and making him seem the reluctant debater and praising Gore's skills. They underestimated Bush deliberately so he could come across as competent for just showing up with his shoes tied correctly.

Also, when it came to the actual information being discussed, Gore cleaned Bush's clock. But when it came to style, as usual the vapid media and public went for Mr. Wink and Grin. Gore's debate loss wasn't because he was bad on the issues, it was because he becomes a bizarre robot whenever a camera is on him.

In the second debate I wanted to scream when Bush cited Lebanon as a successful U.S. military venture. LEBANON. Did the media pick up on it? No. They laughed and cooed because Bush could pronounce Lebanon correctly. He didn't fall on his face, so that was enough to proclaim him a success. Even when he embarrassingly fumbled around with non-answers, evasions and stupidity such as "affirmative access."

	14-05-2002 09:10									#115
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Clinton was an Idiot more worried about getting into intern's skirts than running the nation

Skilord, if you're going to insult President Clinton, concentrate on one of his real faults (such as Real Estate Fraud), instead of his personal life.

And Clinton ran the nation pretty good as far as I can see. He even made several attempts to crack down on Osama Bin Laden and his terrorist group, although the republicans opposed such actions, saying they were "diversions from the all-important Monica Lewinsky".

I'm a Socialist, mind you. I thought Gore was a horrible choice for a political leader. And I KNOW Bush is. I thought McKain was better than any of them. I disagreed with him on a lot of things, but he was REAL. He makes his own decisions about things (he originally opposed Stem Cell Research, and when he found out more about it, deviated from the Republican Party and supported it), and doesn't just do what his party tells him to. He wasn't conservative, just for the sake of being conservative. I thought he was great.

Anyway, they need to let Ukrainians vote in U.S. elections.
(southern accent) We'uns 'll straighten out yer country good (/southern accent)

	14-05-2002 09:17									#116
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That's interesting, Chegitz. I was under the impression Putin was maintaining popularity in Russia(In any case, the reecently signed nuclear arms treaty should help. I'd love to see where you heard that.

	14-05-2002 09:17									#117
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quote: Gore underestimated Bush in the debates? Hardly. Bush came off as an idiot. So did Gore. The media just overestimated Al.

Al Gore is a fabulous debater. They didn't overestimate him at all. He destroyed Perot, Quayle, Kemp, and even Dukaukis (in the 1988 primaries) etc.. they might be the cream of the crop, but he's feared as a debator, and Bush matched him toe to toe.

People like Boris might say that he was totally overmatched, but the evidence isn't there for that. To many commentators Bush did a better job ON THE ISSUES than Gore, and I have to agree that one 2 of the debates, Bush definetly won on the issues.

	14-05-2002 09:19									#118
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quote: We'uns 'll straighten out yer country good

First straighten out your own .

	14-05-2002 09:55									#119
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Imran: hey, the Pro-Western party was screwed, and the Communist Party is likely to hold on to the balance of power.

And that's perfectly fine with me.

Although, the Pro-Western party did get 23% of the vote. So no, letting Ukrainians vote in US elections WOULDN'T solve everything. Rather, the world should just appoint me for emperor. You know it'll be alright.

	14-05-2002 10:02									#120
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Ned, only if you define belief as in 'I believe I exist'.

There is a big difference to believe an atom is made up of neutrons, electrons and protons (which is what I do), and believe in pink unicorns (which is what Bush does. Well, pink unicorns in 'global warming doesn't exist' form, if you catch my drift).