14-05-2002 11:08									#121
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Since when did Bush said Global Warming doesn't exist? I'd like to see a quote .

I think his positions is Global Warming exists, but it won't be as bad as the 'experts' say. And thus doesn't justify sacrificing the economy, therefore we should continue on our basic path until fuel cells replace fossil fuels in the near future.

	14-05-2002 11:21									#122
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ned, only if you define belief as in 'I believe I exist'. There is a big difference to believe an atom is made up of neutrons, electrons and protons (which is what I do), and believe in pink unicorns (which is what Bush does. Well, pink unicorns in 'global warming doesn't exist' form, if you catch my drift).

I don't know about "pink unicorns," but real science depends upon repeatable experiments. Much of "Global Warming" depends upon "theory" which has yet to be confirmed by science. The models are not predicting what we are actually seeing, or, to put another way, the models predict a lot more warming than has actually occurred. Even so, the argument is made that one cannot "prove" the "future," meaning we should act now before theory is confirmed.

I just give one "for example." A few years ago I read an article of the physics of ozone depletion. The reactions required extreme cold, which is why they occur at the poles during winter. At the time, we were seeing a large growth in the ozone layer depletion, particually over the Antarctic. I suggested that one of the reasons for this could be that the poles were getting colder.

When I suggested this, I was immediately informed by Global Warming advocates that the poles were getting warmer, not colder. However, we have recently discovered that the Antarctic has indeed become noticeably colder. I assume the scientists will adjust their models accordingly. However, what the models predicted to happen was not only not happening, but the opposite was happening.

Even though Global Warming lies, in my opinion, more in science fiction than in fact, I personally believe we should proceed with a prudent level of reduction in greenhouse gasses, primarily by moving to clean power. I believe this because I cannot "know" that Global Warming is not going to happen. The computer models suggest that it will.

I think this is Bush's position as well.

Ned

	14-05-2002 11:23									#123
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quote: Even though Global Warming lies, in my opinion, more in science fiction than in fact

Without Global Warming, life wouldn't exist . I think what you are looking for is 'Our increase in Global Warming lies more in sci-fi than in fact'.

Anyway, I disagree with you and the President... but then again, I'm not saying that you believe in 'pink unicorns' or anything .

	14-05-2002 12:08									#124
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Economic policy: Unbalanced the budget in order to give tax breaks to the ultra wealth.

Energy policy: drill for more gas and oil. (er...that's all)

War on Terror: Stomped the Taliban then did nothing except call nations he doesn't like part of an "axis of evil."

No real serious damages yet, so I rate him a "fair"

	14-05-2002 12:45									#125
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Well, Imran, have you actually read the governments reports? The United States. it seems, will actually benefit economically from Global Warming. The models predict a large increase in rain in the West. The models also predict a significant increase in agriculural production in the U.S. All is not gloom and doom.

In fact, one Stanford professor questions why the United States should do anything to stop Global Warming given its positive impact on the U.S.

These are also reasons why we should go slow on "remedies."

Ned

	14-05-2002 20:55									#126
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quote: I would like to give you an example of a "great" leader from your area, Adolph Hitler. He garnered 92% and 99% of the vote in the last two elections before the war.

48% and 42% I believe. Or something along those lines. Not even the mayority of the votes.

	14-05-2002 21:09									#127
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Not being a US resident I can't say I know much, but AFAIK, he got the American economy running quite well. As for sept. 11... I guess any president would order an attack on Afghanistan, and I guess it's not exactly up to the president how the war is waged - so some ppl who think that if there was another president, Bin Laden would be captured, are wrong.

However, I do dislike Bush's vision of ME... Clinton did stronger support for Israel, and though the USA still supports Israel, the support, as I feel, isn't that big. Though just consider, if not for the fear of USA, Iraq would probably ally with the Palestenian terrorist organizations and commit a total genocide in Israel.

	14-05-2002 21:10									#128
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I think that he's bringing the US' downfall about quicker than I would have imagined possible prior to Jan. 2001. I give him about a 9.8/10.

damn, i wanted to write just that but you stole my line

	15-05-2002 19:47									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus 48% and 42% I believe. Or something along those lines. Not even the mayority of the votes.

Obviously the history that I have seen on Web on this point is incorrect. Can you give me a link to a more reliable source?

Ned

	15-05-2002 20:48									#130
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quote: Obviously the history that I have seen on Web on this point is incorrect. Can you give me a link to a more reliable source?

It wasn't wrong, it was incomplete. In the last two elections Hitler did get 90+% of the votes. But those elections weren't democratic. My numbers were out of the top of my head though, the real figures for the last democratic elections were 44% and 33%.

http://212.187.153.33/1930-1939/Sto...,126949,00.html (Guardian)

November 13th, 1933. Nazis get 93.4% of the votes. But, like I said, those weren't democratic elections.

March 5th 1933: Nazis get 43.9% of the votes. Last democratic elections.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/tro...0-ger/elect.htm (Marxist site, but the numbers are the same as in the Guardian article)

November 1932: Nazis get 33.1% of the votes.

March 1933: Nazis get 43.9% of the votes. Last democratic elections.

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/prasident.htm

Presidential elections:

March 13th 1932: Hitler gets 30.1% of the votes

April 10th 1932: Hitler gets 36.8% of the votes

	15-05-2002 23:41									#131
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quote: Well, Imran, have you actually read the governments reports? The United States. it seems, will actually benefit economically from Global Warming. The models predict a large increase in rain in the West. The models also predict a significant increase in agriculural production in the U.S. All is not gloom and doom.

You mean, as opposed to the droughts we are facing now?

Increases in Global Warming cannot lead to good things, Ned. It is all gloom and doom, because while MINOR warming may help, you can't really have simply minor warming. It feeds on itself.

	15-05-2002 23:58									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Well, Imran, have you actually read the governments reports? The United States. it seems, will actually benefit economically from Global Warming. The models predict a large increase in rain in the West. The models also predict a significant increase in agriculural production in the U.S. All is not gloom and doom. You mean, as opposed to the droughts we are facing now? Increases in Global Warming cannot lead to good things, Ned. It is all gloom and doom, because while MINOR warming may help, you can't really have simply minor warming. It feeds on itself.

Venus?

Ned

	16-05-2002 01:27									#133
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Lessee:

He's a fascist bastard who passed a bill that has undermined our civil liberties more than any other bill in recent history.

He's had an irresponsible policy with regards to Israel and a downright horrible one with regards to Colombia.

He's passed tons of corporate welfare.

In general, he's been increasing spending irresponsibly.

He's been increasing protectionism, although the Dems likely would've been worse.

On the other hand, he's handled the war in Afghanistan reasonably well.

I think that makes him average.

	16-05-2002 04:08									#134
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD What's he trying to take our minds off of? kosovo never harbored terrorists that attacked us.

ENRON, and a UNOCAL sponsored pipeline in Afghanistan, it must be working, because no one is talking about it.

	16-05-2002 04:56									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, Imran, have you actually read the governments reports? The United States. it seems, will actually benefit economically from Global Warming. The models predict a large increase in rain in the West. The models also predict a significant increase in agriculural production in the U.S. All is not gloom and doom. In fact, one Stanford professor questions why the United States should do anything to stop Global Warming given its positive impact on the U.S. These are also reasons why we should go slow on "remedies." Ned

Am I authorized to find absolutly frightening such irresponsability about the ecological balance ?
"let's disrupt what's left of the ecosystem on Earth so it will beneficiate to our economy"...

Let me puke...

	16-05-2002 05:37									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Am I authorized to find absolutly frightening such irresponsability about the ecological balance ? "let's disrupt what's left of the ecosystem on Earth so it will beneficiate to our economy"... Let me puke...

As I said, I am in favor of clean power as a matter of prudence. However, IMHO, the Global Warming "theory" advocates have yet to make a strong case. The case is deficient from two aspects. First, whether and to what degree there will be warming. There is much debate here and disagreement even among the advocates. There is also disagreement on the effects of warming. For example, I have heard that the oceans may rise 300 feet. However, I have also read articles that this is literally impossible without Greenland and Antarctica melting. But to melt these blocks of ice, the weather would have to warm to the predicted temperatures and stay that way for 50,000 years. Not likely in an era of Ice Ages.

Akka, What I see substituted for argument and evidence is hysteria. This is not convincing.

Ned

	16-05-2002 05:43									#137
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What we need is to put the money of the oil lobby in fusion power and hydrogen engine. Except for the little bosses of the oil company, everyone would benefit of unlimited supply of totally clean energy and of pollution-zero cars.

	16-05-2002 05:47									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As I said, I am in favor of clean power as a matter of prudence. However, IMHO, the Global Warming "theory" advocates have yet to make a strong case. The case is deficient from two aspects. First, whether and to what degree there will be warming. There is much debate here and disagreement even among the advocates. There is also disagreement on the effects of warming. For example, I have heard that the oceans may rise 300 feet. However, I have also read articles that this is literally impossible without Greenland and Antarctica melting. But to melt these blocks of ice, the weather would have to warm to the predicted temperatures and stay that way for 50,000 years. Not likely in an era of Ice Ages. Akka, What I see substituted for argument and evidence is hysteria. This is not convincing. Ned

Evidence is that of the the ten hottest summers in the XXth century, 9 where after 1990.
Evidence is that there is a hole in the ozon above south pole.
Evidence is that we have more and more cyclons.

The threat of warming is here. But even if it wasn't here, the simple saving of the remnant of our ecosystem is a reason enough to put a hold on polluting means and to find clean ones. I don't want me and my eventuals children to live in a nightmarish fully-polluted world just because somme hobbies did not wanted to waste their 20 % market share.

	16-05-2002 06:01									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil Evidence is that of the the ten hottest summers in the XXth century, 9 where after 1990. Evidence is that there is a hole in the ozon above south pole. Evidence is that we have more and more cyclons. The threat of warming is here. But even if it wasn't here, the simple saving of the remnant of our ecosystem is a reason enough to put a hold on polluting means and to find clean ones. I don't want me and my eventuals children to live in a nightmarish fully-polluted world just because somme hobbies did not wanted to waste their 20 % market share.

I agree we should dramatically increase funding for clean power. This obviously is the way to go for the future. Once we roll out the technology, the whole world will benefit.

But I see no pressing need to shut down the U.S. economy so that the Chinese and Indians can pollute more. We need more rational solutions.

Ned

	16-05-2002 06:46									#140
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I believe that Bush has done excellent thus far. His example shows once again that to be a successful or even great president one doesn't actually need to be overall intelligent and highly educated. What a president needs is just some basic common sense, intuition and the ability to connect with people.

	16-05-2002 07:37									#141
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond I believe that Bush has done excellent thus far. His example shows once again that to be a successful or even great president one doesn't actually need to be overall intelligent and highly educated. What a president needs is just some basic common sense, intuition and the ability to connect with people.

He is highly educated. He graduated from Yale, which is an ivy league school.

	16-05-2002 08:11									#142
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Moses, you are familiar with the term, "Gentleman's C," aren't you?

	16-05-2002 08:35									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I've never, ever misunderestimated the ass-kicking power of Bush's staff. Rove is about as crafty a political snake as they come, and he's been calling the shots for a long time. Bush, however, is a goober.

There's an old saying in the good ol' boy network, "He may be a fool, but he's our fool."