14-05-2002 16:00									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, I have yet to see muslims marching the streets demonstrating against hollands liberalism

There hasnt been any political activity in this direction, so the concerns arent really backed up with reallife (inside holland).

	14-05-2002 16:59									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The basic argument used here is that Moslems have a different culture, so therefore it's ok to discriminate against them coming in. :

unlike in the usa, where one can be a cannibal in his backyard as long as he pays the taxes?

	14-05-2002 17:02									#33
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso unlike in the usa, where one can be a cannibal in his backyard as long as he pays the taxes?

not only his taxes... (it is not so easy as that)

he also has to swear allegiance to the US flag and everything it stands for (which in this case at least would be appropriate)

	14-05-2002 18:07									#34
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Paiktis, you just can't stop , can you?

quote: The point was its against Religion to be tolerant/liberal (interpreted from dals posts)

why that's EXACTLY what am I saying !
do you really think that religious leaders would change their ways , considering .... well almost anything , if the enlightment period wouldn't have existed ? Of course , now they're all warm and cozy, but that's not how it has been for Millenia!

I am not a great fan of the "west " , Europe , and the US , as they're capitalist, and everyone knows what my stance on that is , but it's much better than Islamic countries! And unlike western countries, where the population is supposedly christian , but actually is atheist/agnostic , or non-practicing at worst , in the muslim countries , the whole population is religious , and that population is growing , with no connection to life standards, as some tend to claim (This could easily be seen from birth rates in the richest arab states , as the Gulf emirates ) .

quote: Well, I have yet to see muslims marching the streets demonstrating against hollands liberalism

well, in countries like Russia , in some regions ( that have certain local legislative power) , muslims are the majority , and moves against liberalism ARE made. I CLEARLY remember this , though I can't send you to an online source. Also , as seen from the activities of muslims in the south of russia, where a local muslim leader ,an Imam of the area , that is supposed to be mainstream and mellow , is currently suspected in an attempt to form a muslim state in the south of Russia. Also the threat of Islam is crearly demonstrated by the Chechniya case , in which it was a muslim cause that pushed towards separation from the young Russian Federation , that was at first successful . a virtually independent state existed for around 5 years, IIRC (I remember that it was there for a couple of years, the exact number is what I am not sure of).

In that state all the muslim laws were practiced , including the strictest ones. That pseudo-state also practiced terrorism against civilians in adjacent regions of the federation , and all around Russia, practiced kidnapping and extortion, slavery , brutal , and inhumane killings of people ( sculping, cutting off fingers and limbs , etc. ) .
That evil regime was to be crushed when it dared to start a similar state in a neighbouring region, only to be counter-attacked and run to the ground.

	14-05-2002 18:38									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

BS.

For you apparently, if a guy didn't wish to suicid-bomb him-self in the name of Allah, he isn't truly a muslim ?

Are jews still killing adulterer women ? No ? Yes are surely less religious, so !

	14-05-2002 20:55									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Paiktis, you just can't stop , can you? why that's EXACTLY what am I saying ! do you really think that religious leaders would change their ways , considering .... well almost anything , if the enlightment period wouldn't have existed ? Of course , now they're all warm and cozy, but that's not how it has been for Millenia! I am not a great fan of the "west " , Europe , and the US , as they're capitalist, and everyone knows what my stance on that is , but it's much better than Islamic countries! And unlike western countries, where the population is supposedly christian , but actually is atheist/agnostic , or non-practicing at worst , in the muslim countries , the whole population is religious , and that population is growing , with no connection to life standards, as some tend to claim (This could easily be seen from birth rates in the richest arab states , as the Gulf emirates ) . well, in countries like Russia , in some regions ( that have certain local legislative power) , muslims are the majority , and moves against liberalism ARE made. I CLEARLY remember this , though I can't send you to an online source. Also , as seen from the activities of muslims in the south of russia, where a local muslim leader ,an Imam of the area , that is supposed to be mainstream and mellow , is currently suspected in an attempt to form a muslim state in the south of Russia. Also the threat of Islam is crearly demonstrated by the Chechniya case , in which it was a muslim cause that pushed towards separation from the young Russian Federation , that was at first successful . a virtually independent state existed for around 5 years, IIRC (I remember that it was there for a couple of years, the exact number is what I am not sure of). In that state all the muslim laws were practiced , including the strictest ones. That pseudo-state also practiced terrorism against civilians in adjacent regions of the federation , and all around Russia, practiced kidnapping and extortion, slavery , brutal , and inhumane killings of people ( sculping, cutting off fingers and limbs , etc. ) . That evil regime was to be crushed when it dared to start a similar state in a neighbouring region, only to be counter-attacked and run to the ground.

In America, we seemed to have made distinctions between "traditional" Islam and "fundamentalist" Islam. We seem to believe that the former is a so-called "peaceful" religion. It is like much of Christianity in the West: tolerant of other religions and viewpoints.

In actual practice in America, we have Muslims just as we have fundamentalist Christians. We all live side by side and somehow get along peacefully. Yes, we try to extend our religious views. Be we do so "democratically," by argument and vote.

Do you believe this is simply not possible with Muslims regardless of whether they are fundamentalists? Will they always choose violence and terror? I am not convinced.

What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance. This is the same phenomenon that caused or at least contributed to the Holocost.

Ned

	14-05-2002 21:07									#37
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ned In America, we seemed to have made distinctions between "traditional" Islam and "fundamentalist" Islam. We seem to believe that the former is a so-called "peaceful" religion. It is like much of Christianity in the West: tolerant of other religions and viewpoints.

since when is christianity tolerant? 'follow the shoe!', 'follow the sandal!' 'argh, infidels, now you will die for putting a coma on the wrong place in this manuscript!' 'no, no, you die because your priests go around altar three times instead of two during the service'

quote: In actual practice in America, we have Muslims just as we have fundamentalist Christians.

so fundy christians are as bad as 'normal' muslims?

quote: What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance. This is the same phenomenon that caused or at least contributed to the Holocost. Ned

what i see in america are one-liners about european anti-semitism. let me make a parallel. during the reign of slobodan milosevic, we were told that 'the west is not against the serbian people, but that they really hate our ruler'. so, we all like jews, it is just that we have a bit of a problem with sharon. if, of course, you can swallow this explanation

	14-05-2002 21:12									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance.

c'mon Ned. I always believed you were an intelligent poster, so you must be trolling with all these posts right?

If you are, kudos to you. 9/10

if you are not, and mean what you say than you have got a very distorted view of Europe.

And note that the person you responded to isn't from Europe.

	14-05-2002 23:25									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

@Dalgetti
So we shouldnt trust any religious ppl., cose they never can be tolerant. And when the US president claims to be a christian we should prepare for the 2. inquisition?

	15-05-2002 00:22									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus c'mon Ned. I always believed you were an intelligent poster, so you must be trolling with all these posts right? If you are, kudos to you. 9/10 if you are not, and mean what you say than you have got a very distorted view of Europe. And note that the person you responded to isn't from Europe.

Saint Marcus, I see a lot of bigotry in Europe. I also see a lot of bigotry in America. We need less of it, in my view. People with different ways of living have come to the United States and enriched its culture. I think the same can be true of Europe.

As can be seen from the posts here, hatred of religion, from Christianity to Islam, exists.

Ned

	15-05-2002 00:27									#41
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso since when is christianity tolerant? 'follow the shoe!', 'follow the sandal!' 'argh, infidels, now you will die for putting a coma on the wrong place in this manuscript!' 'no, no, you die because your priests go around altar three times instead of two during the service' so fundy christians are as bad as 'normal' muslims? what i see in america are one-liners about european anti-semitism. let me make a parallel. during the reign of slobodan milosevic, we were told that 'the west is not against the serbian people, but that they really hate our ruler'. so, we all like jews, it is just that we have a bit of a problem with sharon. if, of course, you can swallow this explanation

There were an awful lot of Serbs beyond Milosevic who engaged in ethnic cleansing. It appalled me.

Ned

	15-05-2002 00:38									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: As can be seen from the posts here, hatred of religion, from Christianity to Islam, exists.

Of course it does. But still the (vast) mayority of Europeans is religious.

And there are few places on this planet where "hatred" of religion is more common than Europe. That's because when it comes to secularisation we are a stage ahead of most. But, to balance things out, there is also far fewer hatred towards homosexuals here (generally speaking).

Also note that Fortuyn was very religious himself (he was a devout catholic, despite being gay).

	15-05-2002 00:41									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Chechnya is one of the six countries in the world were homosexuality is a capital offense. The other five are all Islamic nations too.

	15-05-2002 00:56									#44
	Suffering from ads?

All of this anti-Islamic BS sounds alot like the Anti-Catholic BS that was prominent early in this country. Often times reformers of the era would argue against allowing "The Priest ridden troops of the Holy Alliance" to enter this country. They argued that Catholics immigrants did not have any positive view of liberty, and were obedient to whatever their priests said like flocks of sheep.

It was BS then, it is BS now.

	15-05-2002 02:49									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi All of this anti-Islamic BS sounds alot like the Anti-Catholic BS that was prominent early in this country. Often times reformers of the era would argue against allowing "The Priest ridden troops of the Holy Alliance" to enter this country. They argued that Catholics immigrants did not have any positive view of liberty, and were obedient to whatever their priests said like flocks of sheep. It was BS then, it is BS now.

Shi, Actually, these very same arguments were used against Kennedy. I remember them clearly.

Saint Marcus, In America, the Caltholic clergy is almost dominated by gay priests. This has been an issue in the current pedophilia crisis. I must admit though, I am not sure of the Church's stand on homosexuality.

I once, in another forum, argued that Christianity changed the Roman Empire for the better. I really got dumped upon. Almost everyone thought that Christianity was the source of evil -- not the source of good. Almost no one was willing to acknowledge that the whole concept of human rights, taking care of the poor, and equality of all people found its origin in Christianity. These are not Roman concepts. Neither are they German.

The perversion of the Catholic Church occurred in the Middle Ages when religion became too closely associated with the state. This lead to conquest on behalf of religion, tortures and burnings at the stake, and corruption galore. I also believe the Jews were repeatedly massacred because of Christianity.

I believe, though, that the bulk of Christianity is now disassociated from the state and merely teaches its members how to lead a virtuous life. It also ministers to the poor. In this posture, Christianity is good. (I admit, there remain some aggressive fundamentalist Christians.)

I was therefor surprised on how strong the anti-Christian feelings were. I am not surprised that anti-Islam feelings are just as strong.

In Europe, the anti-Islam feelings appear to be primarily targeted at immigrants. (I for the moment will leave the Serbs out of this.) It is one thing to defend liberality. It quite another to discriminate based upon religion and national origin.

Ned

	15-05-2002 04:41									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Ned I don't know whether Fortuyn was left or right, but what he had to say sounded very similar to what Hitler had to say about the Jews: they are different from "us;" they don't mix in, but keep separate; they attempt to change our culture, etc. This kind of attitude can only lead to discrimination and hate. Frankly I found it amazing that in one of the posts on anti-Semitism in Europe, the defender of European purity blamed the anti-Semitism on "them," the muslim immigrants, who of course, are not European and are not "us." Racism is very alive and well in Europe. Ned

Dear Ned,

A few remarks:

1 You should distinguish between anti-Semitism, anti-Israel and anti-Zionism!
I am against Zionism since it will inevitably cause a Third World War -hopefully a small one. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are ALSO against Zionism. For some reason this gets hardly any attention in the media, even when there are mass demonstrations of Orthodox Jews.

2 I agree that Fortuyn did say some disagreeable things about Muslims and Islam, but that was partly to crank up the discussion on this issue. Until recently it was almost impossible to mention any problems with immigrants and their integration in Dutch society. Even acknowledging the fact that a disproportionate number of Moroccan youngsters are criminals made you a fascist! ALL other political parties systemetically ignored the problem!

3 In my country I guess that anti-Semitic destructive activities -attacking synagogues, plastering cemeteries- is for at least 80% carried out by Muslim immigrants. Jews are undistinguishable from other Dutchmen and completely assimilated.
Muslim media like al-Jazira give a completely different picture of world politics. Israel and the support it receives from Europe and the USA are not popular among Muslims, to say the least.

4 Fortuyn was a staunch supporter of Israel, another reason for me not to vote for him.

5 Though Holland used to be the most tolerant country in the world, harassment of gays has risen demonstrably, mainly by Muslim youngsters. Quite recently an iman declared publicly that Europeans were worse than pigs because they tolerated homosexuality. Legal action was taken, but he was acquitted because of the freedom of religion.

6 Fortuyn can be considered right-wing/liberal -though not on all issues. Ironically his voters were largely former followers of our social-democratic party (PvdA). Until now, social-democrats and liberals ruled the country.

Tomorrow I will vote on the SP, the most left wing party in the country. Normally I vote for a more moderate party, but I am sick of the ruling elite, which has denied all serious problems.

	15-05-2002 05:07									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze 1 You should distinguish between anti-Semitism, anti-Israel and anti-Zionism!

Until your post here, Israel was not mentioned in this thread and Jews only tangentially so. While I actually agree to a certain extent (I'm not sure how much one should distinguish between anti-Israel and anti-Zionism), I don't see how this is even vaguely relevant to the topic.

quote: I am against Zionism since it will inevitably cause a Third World War -hopefully a small one. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are ALSO against Zionism. For some reason this gets hardly any attention in the media, even when there are mass demonstrations of Orthodox Jews.

I can't speak for the Dutch media, but here anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews get their fair share of attention. Which is miniscule, because there numbers are somewhere less than 100,000 worldwide and their influence on American society approaches nil because of their insular society. As to why they get so little attention in the Dutch media, it's probably either because all the anti-Zionist Satmar Hassidim in the Netherlands could fit into one room, or because they are considered irrelevant.

quote: 2 I agree that Fortuyn did say some disagreeable things about Muslims and Islam, but that was partly to crank up the discussion on this issue. Until recently it was almost impossible to mention any problems with immigrants and their integration in Dutch society. Even acknowledging the fact that a disproportionate number of Moroccan youngsters are criminals made you a fascist! ALL other political parties systemetically ignored the problem!

So he had to propose an immigration moratorium and declare that Muslims were a century behind the west?

quote: 3 In my country I guess that anti-Semitic destructive activities -attacking synagogues, plastering cemeteries- is for at least 80% carried out by Muslim immigrants. Jews are undistinguishable from other Dutchmen and completely assimilated.

Obviously if they go to synagogues or visit Jewish graveyards they are distinguishable from other Dutchmen. Unless Dutch protestants are in the habit of visiting Jewish burial places and houses of worship.


IMHO, Fortuyn had a few decent points. I disagree with Ned's Hitler comparison, but it is a lot like the many countries which didn't want Jews (Germany was only one of dozens) in the first half of this century because of their supposed association with leftism.

	15-05-2002 06:22									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Kroeze, I do distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. However, I believe the strong anti-Zionism prevalent in Europe "encourages" the more radical to engage in hate attacks on the Jews, their cemeteries and places of worship.

George Bush went out of his way in his great speech after 9/11 to tell Americans that we would not and should not discriminate against American Muslims. Despite this, Muslims have suffered an increasing amount of suspicion and hate even here. I believe this is inevitable.

On Zionism causing a World War, I think you have it backwards. We are already in a World War, but fundamentalist Islam, not Zionism, is its cause. Fundamentalist Islam is far older that Zionism.

Ned

Last edited by Ned on 15-05-2002 at 19:35

	15-05-2002 06:27									#49
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Absolutely right, Ned. This is only the latest battle in a war that began a thousand years ago. The Crusades, the Ottoman expansions, and even the Arab-Israeli wars were all but sub-battles of the cultural clash between fundamentalist Islam and the West.

	15-05-2002 06:28									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

What definition of liberals are we using here? Classical or modern (i.e. U.S.)?

	15-05-2002 13:04									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ned There were an awful lot of Serbs beyond Milosevic who engaged in ethnic cleansing. It appalled me. Ned

oh yes, you were an eyewitness

	15-05-2002 15:37									#52
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso unlike in the usa, where one can be a cannibal in his backyard as long as he pays the taxes?

You are thinking of Canada.

	15-05-2002 15:48									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: BS. For you apparently, if a guy didn't wish to suicid-bomb him-self in the name of Allah, he isn't truly a muslim ?

well, not everyone has to be suicide bombing. Some can also kill their sisters in order to protect the 'dignity of the family' , could also hate homosexuals.

quote: Are jews still killing adulterer women ? No ? Yes are surely less religious, so !

yep, less religious. Btw , beating up women that are 'unproperly' dressed ,is a pretty common thing in religious jewish neighbourhoods, and by strange coinsidence these include these people that S.Kroeze included in his post, to prove some point I can't understand. Zionism is a jewish national movement, But does that make anti-zionists internationalists, and cosmopolitans? I don't think so.

quote: In America, we seemed to have made distinctions between "traditional" Islam and "fundamentalist" Islam. We seem to believe that the former is a so-called "peaceful" religion. It is like much of Christianity in the West: tolerant of other religions and viewpoints.

yep, the "traditional muslim" expansionist wars are really a huge effort to bring world peace. Yes, sure christians were just as bad in dark and mid ages , but you don't see christians perfoming enquisitions, or going out on crusades ( well, except Bush )

quote: In actual practice in America, we have Muslims just as we have fundamentalist Christians. We all live side by side and somehow get along peacefully. Yes, we try to extend our religious views. Be we do so "democratically," by argument and vote.

yes, of course , with schools teaching creationism ( as around some schools here ) , and local laws against homosexuality. maybe that's the rule of the majority at work , but remember that in democracy we also protect minorities.

quote: Do you believe this is simply not possible with Muslims regardless of whether they are fundamentalists? Will they always choose violence and terror? I am not convinced.

Individuals no, but once a powerful religious establishment is inplace , and it has educational facilities, that will bring up the next generation to be the way it wants , I think there is a reason to be concerned , esp. with the percentage of muslims against non-muslims growing all around europe.

quote: What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance. This is the same phenomenon that caused or at least contributed to the Holocost.

that's incorrect . Jews were persecuted because of their nationality , "race" , by the Nazis.

	15-05-2002 17:23									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Intolerance leads necessary to slaughters.

	15-05-2002 17:27									#55
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If I have gotten Dals pov right, that is what religion is all about Zobo

	15-05-2002 18:08									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Religion r of course a piece of BS. Those who follow them blindly become intolerent for sure.

But intolerence against intolerence didn't work of course.

	15-05-2002 19:19									#57
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Religion r of course a piece of BS. Those who follow them blindly become intolerent for sure. But intolerence against intolerence didn't work of course.

Yes, Yes, as opposed to tolerant atheisitic people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Sung, etc., etc., etc.

	15-05-2002 19:44									#58
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti well, not everyone has to be suicide bombing. Some can also kill their sisters in order to protect the 'dignity of the family' , could also hate homosexuals. yep, less religious. Btw , beating up women that are 'unproperly' dressed ,is a pretty common thing in religious jewish neighbourhoods, and by strange coinsidence these include these people that S.Kroeze included in his post, to prove some point I can't understand. Zionism is a jewish national movement, But does that make anti-zionists internationalists, and cosmopolitans? I don't think so. yep, the "traditional muslim" expansionist wars are really a huge effort to bring world peace. Yes, sure christians were just as bad in dark and mid ages , but you don't see christians perfoming enquisitions, or going out on crusades ( well, except Bush ) yes, of course , with schools teaching creationism ( as around some schools here ) , and local laws against homosexuality. maybe that's the rule of the majority at work , but remember that in democracy we also protect minorities. Individuals no, but once a powerful religious establishment is inplace , and it has educational facilities, that will bring up the next generation to be the way it wants , I think there is a reason to be concerned , esp. with the percentage of muslims against non-muslims growing all around europe. that's incorrect . Jews were persecuted because of their nationality , "race" , by the Nazis.

Dal, Just because both Christianity and Islam has an aggressive warlike phase, they have both largely been peaceful in the last couple hundred years. What is your explanation for this?

On Hitler, if you read Mein Kampf, you distinctly get the impression that Hitler didn't like the Jews because they were "different." He cited numerous examples. It was not just race. Hitler was after "cultural" purity as well.

Ned

	15-05-2002 19:58									#59
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Admitting more and more proponents of Islamic intolerance to our country will not help democracy and tolerance either. While against hatred, discrimination and intolerance, I simply cannot share the relativist view that Western and Islamic values are equivalent. IMO there's a strong case for refusing immigrants who do not share our basic values regarding democracy and secularism, freedom, equality of men and women, and equality of people regardless of their sexual preferences. Why should we go on importing backwardness and bigotry when there are so many potential immigrants from the Third World who would be proud to become members of a free Western society?

Btw, I voted VVD today, for the first time in my life. I used to vote for the PvdA (Social Democrats).

-

	15-05-2002 20:54									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: What definition of liberals are we using here? Classical or modern (i.e. U.S.)?

classical, since Spink is talking about Holland. Of course, he didn't realise that Liberals are right wing like Fortuyn is. Can't blame him though, being a business/crap student and all.

quote: Btw, I voted VVD today, for the first time in my life. I used to vote for the PvdA (Social Democrats).

Booh on you. Dijkstal is a total moron. Melkert sadly isn't much better.

So I voted on Groenlinks Rosenmoller was the only guy who could stand up to Fortuyn.