13-05-2002 15:56									#1
	Muslims, Intolerance, Portuyn and Liberals Inflate your Upload Space

Portuyn had been standing on a similar platform to Le Pen - expel Muslim immigrants - but didn't get the liberal media whipped up into as much of a frenzy as Le Pen did.

Would liberals vote for a policy like Portuyn which seeks to decrease hate and intolerance in a nation...?

	13-05-2002 15:59									#2
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It's Fortuyn.

	13-05-2002 16:00									#3
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Next you'll be calling me Rarrison

	13-05-2002 16:03									#4
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Who the **** is Portuyn?

If you are refering to Fortuyn than: 2/10

Fortuyn: don't expel immigrants living in Holland. only stop admitting new immigrants. Holland should still admit political refugees.

Le Pen: expel immigrants living in France, and stop admitting new immigrants (including political refugees).

Even you must see the difference.

	13-05-2002 16:04									#5
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Ignoring your racist troll, the Media situation varies immensely from country to country. I know in denmark it's considered entirely wrong to be hostile to far-right candidates, for instance, meaning they impose some sort of bullshit "objectivity" and allow the far-right a voice and a large share of the vote.

	13-05-2002 16:06									#6
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Another note: Dutch liberals are right wing. Fortuyn is also right wing. More similarities.

	13-05-2002 16:14									#7
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SM: the difference is exceedingly slim. We're not talking sort of muddy social-democrat underhand border-stoppering in either case- pure vicious anti-immigrant rhetoric is pure vicious anti-immigrant rhetoric.

	13-05-2002 16:25									#8
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quote: SM: the difference is exceedingly slim.

There is a huge difference.

Read the Economist. They recently did a survey on Holland, and concluded that Fortuyn is indeed a whole lot different from Le Pen and De Winter.

	13-05-2002 16:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Fortuyn: don't expel immigrants living in Holland. only stop admitting new immigrants. Holland should still admit political refugees. Le Pen: expel immigrants living in France, and stop admitting new immigrants (including political refugees). Even you must see the difference.

Still makes Fortuyn a moron IMO. You don't have to oppose people just because you think they are wrong. I don't oppose christian democrats just because I think they are wrong. A society gotta show some ****ing tolerance.

	13-05-2002 17:41									#10
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quote: Still makes Fortuyn a moron IMO

I agree.

Though it doesn't make him a Le Pen.

From The Economist: It would be wrong to assume that [Mr Fortuyn]is just another right-wing politician like Mr Le Pen, Austria's Jorg Haider or the leaders of Belgium's Vlaamse Blok.

	13-05-2002 18:08									#11
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Although I disagree with all those extreme righty/nazi views. I can understand their apprehension towards Muslim immigrants. Instead of expelling them, all the native Europeans should just start screwing like rabbits and making more babies than them.

	13-05-2002 18:19									#12
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Snapcase - "pure vicious anti-immigrant rhetoric is pure vicious anti-immigrant rhetoric."

Juggernaut - "A society gotta show some ****ing tolerance."

Fortuyn's policies of keeping Muslims out was in order to decrease intolerance in society; his reasoning being that Muslims tend to be more conservative and more intolerant of such things as homosexuality.

Surely liberals sh/would like this barrier against intolerance.

	13-05-2002 18:28									#13
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I don't think Fortuyn is particularly right-wing at all. His attitude towards Islam was a result of his perception (rightly or wrongly) that Muslims themselves were far-right, in social terms; that is, homophobic, sexist, anti-euthanasia, anti-legalisation etc etc.

	13-05-2002 18:29									#14
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quote: Surely liberals sh/would like this barrier against intolerance.

Yes, but that's nothing new. The first person to use the line "Holland is full" was Bolkenstein, a high ranking liberal. Fortuyn later copied it. Dijkstal, current leader of the Liberal Party, said that Holland isn't full, but it's pretty crowded. The Liberal Party has been trying to lower the number of immigrants for years now. The Liberals also don't criticise Fortuyn for wanting to stop the flow of immigrants, they simply criticise him for suggesting methods and goals that are impossible.

So what's your point?

Of course, you clearly don't seem to understand that liberals are right-wingers in Holland, and thus on the same side of the political spectrum as Fortuyn.

Back to school for you kiddo

	13-05-2002 20:07									#15
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Please forive me for what follows: Isn't Netherlands one of those European countries where the native population is declining, but the net popukation slightly increasing due to immigration? If I were gay I would not want to see the native population, which is tolerant to gays, replaced by immigrants who advocate a philosophy which includes exterminating gays.

	13-05-2002 20:42									#16
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Intolerance for intolerance...?

	13-05-2002 21:16									#17
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Some points about the "Muslim Danger"
1. You have to take into account that muslims around here are more tolerant, liberal than in comparison with other countrys. You can really see the diffrence when you come from Germany and compare the general atitude of muslims.
2. We have about 800k muslims here. Thats out of 16mio. total population. -> 5%. So the "danger" isnt as big as some paint it
3. There is a good rate of ppl. converting from muslims to other religions or atheists around here.
4. IMO the "Conservative Danger" from muslims isnt much higher, than from Catholics (maybe we should expel them? )

	13-05-2002 21:24									#18
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quote: Isn't Netherlands one of those European countries where the native population is declining, but the net popukation slightly increasing due to immigration?

Yes.

And 10% of the population is immigrant nowadays. Will probably rise, though the flow of immigrants has dropped by 25% over the last few years.

	14-05-2002 03:09									#19
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quote: I don't think Fortuyn is particularly right-wing at all. His attitude towards Islam was a result of his perception (rightly or wrongly) that Muslims themselves were far-right, in social terms; that is, homophobic, sexist, anti-euthanasia, anti-legalisation etc etc.

I find myself agreeing with him in that case .
Intolerance to intolerance. yep . Just as we do this to stupid nazis and white supremacists , I think we have the right to do it to people that think that being gay is wrong, ex-marital sex for women is punishable by death , even if they disguise it under the pretext of "religion".

	14-05-2002 03:10									#20
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quote: 1. You have to take into account that muslims around here are more tolerant, liberal than in comparison with other countrys. You can really see the diffrence when you come from Germany and compare the general atitude of muslims.

that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

	14-05-2002 03:19									#21
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...and most important, I found Fortuyn to be much more sympathic than other right-wing politicians.
Of course, in a generally left-wing democracy he was immediately labeled far-right, but I hardly see him nearly as far right as Berlusconi, for example. In fact, he was quite moderate, he just had this nasty habit of shocking the crowd with surprising comments every now and then. And he had his reasons, which are very understandable when taken account into his position as a homosexual.

	14-05-2002 03:32									#22
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what's wrong with any of that? except for the part where citizens would be expelled simply based on their faith or ethnicity that's wrong in anyone's eyes. But what's wrong with terminating emmigration and expelling people who violated the laws of a country and came/stayed illegally without merit?

tolorence is a sort of "live and let live" philosophy, not an, "accept everything" one. just because you are tolorent, doesn't mean that you should sit there and let people INVADE your country, even if its a "peacful" invasion, without weapons.

unless you're france, then you just pull open your ass cheecks and hope for the best.

	14-05-2002 03:42									#23
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I don't know whether Fortuyn was left or right, but what he had to say sounded very similar to what Hitler had to say about the Jews: they are different from "us;" they don't mix in, but keep separate; they attempt to change our culture, etc. This kind of attitude can only lead to discrimination and hate.

Frankly I found it amazing that in one of the posts on anti-Semitism in Europe, the defender of European purity blamed the anti-Semitism on "them," the muslim immigrants, who of course, are not European and are not "us."

Racism is very alive and well in Europe.

Ned

	14-05-2002 03:51									#24
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Racism is alive and well all around the world.

	14-05-2002 04:52									#25
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quote: that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

Interesting pov. That means the less though (less liberal) a Religion, the less real it is. So the only real Islam was the Talibans, the only real Christians the Crusaders. Or no?

	14-05-2002 04:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 quote: that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim. Interesting pov. That means the less though (less liberal) a Religion, the less real it is. So the only real Islam was the Talibans, the only real Christians the Crusaders. Or no?

Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek?" Pacifism is the essence of Christianity, not the warmongering of Pope Innocent III.

Ned

	14-05-2002 05:38									#27
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The point was its against Religion to be tolerant/liberal (interpreted from dals posts)

	14-05-2002 06:25									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Some points about the "Muslim Danger" 1. You have to take into account that muslims around here are more tolerant, liberal than in comparison with other countrys. You can really see the diffrence when you come from Germany and compare the general atitude of muslims. 2. We have about 800k muslims here. Thats out of 16mio. total population. -> 5%. So the "danger" isnt as big as some paint it 3. There is a good rate of ppl. converting from muslims to other religions or atheists around here. 4. IMO the "Conservative Danger" from muslims isnt much higher, than from Catholics (maybe we should expel them? )

They posted a interview by him on MSNBC, and he said he didn't like muslems entering the country because it made it unstable. He said muslims make no distinction between religion and state, and that puts them a good 1000 years behind in development as the rest of the world. I'd have to agree with his views, any time you mix church and state your just asking for trouble.

	14-05-2002 08:20									#29
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A guy in my office is Dutch, and we discussed the Fortuyn situation. The media really did distort his views. He's about as right-wing as an American centrist like Clinton.

I think his views on Muslims wasn't racist (first of all, muslims aren't a race, it's a faith). I think he was making a valid point that the continued influx of people who come from areas where there is no separation of church and state and the states are hugely reactionary and oppressive was a cause of concern. He perhaps overstated the dangers with hyperbole (as all politicians are wont to do), but I can't say that I'd be happy with tolls such immigration might take on the Dutch economy and their political way of life.

And remember, he wasn't calling for expulsion. Just a limiting of the influx. And so what if he wanted to expel illegals? What's the point of having a status such as "illegal alien" if you don't kick those people out for not immigrating legally?

	14-05-2002 09:48									#30
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The basic argument used here is that Moslems have a different culture, so therefore it's ok to discriminate against them coming in. :