14-05-2002 00:40									#1
	Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A year ago, Civilization III (which we did not have yet) was perhaps the biggest expectation everyone on this forum was waiting for. Today, the general attitude towards Civ3 is that its a decent game, but it probably won't become a legend anytime soon. My question to the community is, where did Civ3 go wrong?

Was it the lack of multiplayer support which killed Civ3? Scenario capability? Graphics? Hype? Over-expectation? Gameplay?

Discuss.

	14-05-2002 00:51									#2
	Re: Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Shadowstrike A year ago, Civilization III (which we did not have yet) was perhaps the biggest expectation everyone on this forum was waiting for.

And there's the problem. People were expecting too much; they had pre-conceived notions as to what Civ3 would be, and then blamed Firaxis for not designing to their specifications.

	14-05-2002 00:52									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

For me it would be Scenario Capabilities and Gameplay, I prefer more complex things.

	14-05-2002 00:53									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

If you ask me, hype and over-expectation and the fact that it was rushed to the market in the beta stadium. Civ2 is hard to beat if it comes to addictive games, and it also came along without MP and scenario creation. But I see Civ3 as a good game though.

	14-05-2002 01:03									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It was rushed, that was a major problem. And it was simplified for the mass-market. I prefer more options, not a dumbed-down version, so this kinda wrecks the game for me. MP would be nice, but the problems in civ3 unfortunately cannot be fixed by MP and a scenario editor. They are problems deeply rooted in the gameplay that will be difficult, if not impossible, to fix at this stage.

	14-05-2002 01:05									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

There were some mistakes that should not have been made. Trading/AI/lack of features that were advertised or promised. Alot of that stuff adds up. I think in some ways Alpha Centauri is much better.

	14-05-2002 01:07									#7
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph If you ask me, hype and over-expectation and the fact that it was rushed to the market in the beta stadium. Civ2 is hard to beat if it comes to addictive games, and it also came along without MP and scenario creation. But I see Civ3 as a good game though.

And if you do a search on usenet, Civ2 was just as reviled by a very vocal minority when it was released. Actually, it's pretty funny how similiar the comments from 1996 are compared to now, especially the whining about having to *pay* for multiplayer.

Some will argue that the makers of the game didn't learn anything. I would argue that we as consumers are the ones that should look at the track record of the people making the game and manage our expectations accordingly.



Edit - grammatical error.

	14-05-2002 01:07									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I think the biggest thing was that the tech tree only goes up to present day: it displays a certain lack of imagination after Civ2 and SMAC.

	14-05-2002 01:10									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by miike There were some mistakes that should not have been made. Trading/AI/lack of features that were advertised or promised. Alot of that stuff adds up. I think in some ways Alpha Centauri is much better.

SMAC - there's another game that got slammed mightily when it was released. Now we hold it up as a shining example of what they should have done. Go figure.

Also, I have yet to see examples of advertisements or "promises" made by Firaxis regarding Civ3 that were not met. I think people have deluded themselves into thinking MP was promised out of the box; it wasn't.

	14-05-2002 02:13									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Stuie, I was introduced to "Sid Meier" games by Alpha Centauri, and despite a mass of flaws that went through 4 patches, some of which were game breakers, I loved it. 2-3 years later, and 1 expansion which I happily payed for later, I still enjoy playing, albiet mostly multi-player. The single player variation is just now starting to wear off on me, but I'm still willing to play a game now and then SP.

I finally purchased CivIII right before the v1.16f patch, and enjoyed it greatly, for about one month. Then the novelty wore off, and I gave it a break, mostly because of a lack of time to play. I got back into it when they released v1.21f, and enjoy the game, if not as much as when I first bought it. CivIII is a pretty good game, if already starting to pall.

But compared to SMAC, CivIII SUCKS (IMNSHO). Overly simplified to a huge degree, lack of in-game variation, about equal graphics (IMO), no MP (yet), it has none of the "super-chess" feel that SMAC did. The only thing it has going for it is a vastly improved AI. And the AI is improved, but that doesn't make up for the over-simplification of the game. I have already decided not to bother buying the XP, firstly because I will never be able to persuade my normal SMAC LAN partners that it is an improvement, and secondly because I can already tell I will probably be bored with CivIII by the time they release it.

Comparing SMAC to CivIII is like comparing a Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe. SMAC has rich complexity and lots of variations. CivIII has simplicity and every game is similar.

Notice that I'm not demanding my money back or anything.

I do wish they had included formulas for Corruption/Waste etc like they did for SMAC though. ::sigh::

Last edited by Fitz on 14-05-2002 at 03:47

	14-05-2002 03:40									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Fitz But compared to SMAC, CivIII SUCKS. Overly simplified to a huge degree, lack of in-game variation, about equal graphics (IMO), no MP (yet), it has none of the "super-chess" feel that SMAC did. The only thing it has going for it is a vastly improved AI. And the AI is improved, but that doesn't make up for the over-simplification of the game. I have already decided not to bother buying the XP, firstly because I will never be able to persuade my normal SMAC LAN partners that it is an improvement, and secondly because I can already tell I will probably be bored with CivIII by the time they release it. Comparing SMAC to CivIII is like comparing a Chess to Tic-Tac-Toe. SMAC has rich complexity and lots of variations. CivIII has simplicity and every game is similar. Notice that I'm not demanding my money back or anything. I do wish they had included formulas for Corruption/Waste etc like they did for SMAC though. ::sigh::

Civ3 sucks in comparison to SMAC to you. But that is just opnion, I never cared that much for SMAC. I never saw the complexity that everyone says is in the game. Fungus was annoying. You build forrests everywhere you can. You go to the same social engineering choices, time and time again. You build the same units the same way every time.

I was introduced to "Sid Meier" games with Civ I, none of the others have really compared to that first experience. doesn't mean I don't like the other games, but the experience isn't unique like it was for me with Civ and you with SMAC.

	14-05-2002 03:57									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Alright Tubs, I edited the post to reflect that the suckiness of Civ in comparison to SMAC was a very in-humble opion of mine. Happy?

All I can say about your experience is that you went for the simplest way to win. That was not my style in SMAC, and certainly isn't mine in CivIII either. But the option to use things such as Social Engineering, the Design Workshop, many more terraforming improvements were what made the game fantastic. You didn't have to use them if all you wanted to do was play the game 10 times then quit in boredom, as CivIII seems to be set up to do.

I will admit that fungus is annoying.

Given the disappointment you had in SMAC, that "You go to the same social engineering choices, time and time again. You build the same units the same way every time." I fail to understand why you "care for" CivIII. To reiterate your complaints, you go to the same governments, time and time again, and you absolutely build the same units the same way every time, because you don't have any choice in the matter.

	14-05-2002 04:07									#13
	Remove this text

Well. Number one, the fat lady would be premature in tuning up at this point. The thing ain't done. There's at least 1 XP coming, maybe 2 or 3.

Then, all the arguments of 'I love it' or 'I hate it' are largely subjective. That means that the designers probably didn't 'go wrong' so much as they changed directions in a way that many Civ2 / SMAC fanatics do not like. If total units sold is the measure, I think the designers will have 'gone right' by the time the thing is done. But that's just my guess.

Check back in a few years. You'll probably find a large and happy community pounding out the 'Ultimate Mod' along with the 'Massively Orgasmic Scenario Series' and gleefully pounding each other on the way up some MP ladder of sorts. I imagine the designers will have 'done right' by that crowd.

The funniest thing is that some of those who are here now enjoying Civ3 for what it is may well be Yinning away about Civ4 approximately 5 years from now on some board somewhere.

Think happy thoughts.

	14-05-2002 04:12									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

*happy thoughts, happy thoughts*

I reiterate that my stance is not CivIII sucks, just I don't enjoy it as much (and why). Just thought I should make that clear before the anti-whiners really chime in.

	14-05-2002 05:01									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Where did Civ3 go wrong?

It happened to belong to a publisher, Hasbro Interactive, the parent company of which, Hasbro, did not want to remain in the software publishing business. Got sold to a publisher, Infogrammes, a company which is only concerned with the timely output of profitable games. A company who knows how to tailor their product for maximum profit, takeing a game design and breaking it into a game and an XP.

	14-05-2002 05:20									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

An interesting topic. But one I don't understand.

Where did Civ3 go "wrong?" Well, ignoring the subjectivity of this question, I offer that Civ3 went wrong in the same way that every other game I have ever played has gone wrong. I can give you a list of bugs, problems, stupidities, and omission of features I would have loved in every single game I own and have owned.

Despite that, I find myself still playing many of these games.

There is no reason Civ3 went wrong, if it did indeed. Many seem to be caught up in promises, expectations, and assumptions that lower their own opinion of Civ3. Those who expect a feature to be put in are always dissapointed when it is not. Those who expect constant and total realism are upset when the game designers do not share their frame of mind and sense of hisotry and justice to history. People put their faith in so-called promises made by Firaxis, knowing full well that games change as they are created, and feel cheated when these promises are broken.

I suppose the reason I ontinue to play all my imperfect games is that I find them enjoyable for what they are, not what they could/should/would/ have been. I find it more enjoyable to play the game, not review the game.

	14-05-2002 05:27									#17
	Re: Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Shadowstrike A year ago, Civilization III (which we did not have yet) was perhaps the biggest expectation everyone on this forum was waiting for. Today, the general attitude towards Civ3 is that its a decent game, but it probably won't become a legend anytime soon. My question to the community is, where did Civ3 go wrong? Was it the lack of multiplayer support which killed Civ3? Scenario capability? Graphics? Hype? Over-expectation? Gameplay? Discuss.

I consider it less than "decent".

This discussion would take pages as I can think of a hundred things bad about the game, and not too many good.

Don't anyone give me this "we expected too much" crap. That is NOT why the game is a disappointment.

1. Not having scenario-building, and a cheat mode, as in Civ 2 was a rip-off.

2. Marketing a BETA game six months at least before it was ready was insulting.

3. Ugly graphics.

4. Slow, slower, slowest. (That with 1.21).

5. Corruption problems.

6. Idiotic Culture Flipping cities and borders. The concept of borders moving by way of culture is flawed; its implemenation is terrible and illogical.

7. Too few units.

8. Too few techs.

9. Braindead military unit values and capabilities. Firaxis' knowledge of military history is pathetic. Leaders that CAN'T airlift? Elephants that can?!? All the values are screwed up, especially the too low values for post-gunpowder units. At least we can Edit that.

10. Resources are WAY too scarce. At least we can Edit that.

11. Inability to use new maps without having to Edit the entire mod.

12. Stupid, stupid foreign advisor and military AI. They have done things so dumb I just felt like quitting thr game; I also felt ripped off.

13. NOTHING left to explore or settle by the time we get even just to caravels!

14. That stinking FLOOD of settlers descending like a plague on every open tile and even marching through your territory.

15. Pathetic use of naval units and naval warfare. We can't even sink transports with freight anymore as in Civ 2. There is no way a navy can effect an enemy's trade except by blockading every one of his ports. Absurd.

16. Too many uselees units. You know the ones I mean.

17. Rampant AI cheating - cheating that Civ 2 did not do; it just gave the AI a better percentage in combat.

18. "Hanging" units that take forever to end their turns, thus slowing the slow game even more.

19. Countless bugs, bugs, bugs, upon release, including even spelling errors in the txt. Need my Spellcheck??

20. Imposible to see some resources on the map (esp. coal) unless we take the trouble to download new images.

21. No spies, diplomats, freight or caravans. It was FUN toi sneak a caravan or spy by see into a distant city, esp. by sea.

22. Espionage is grossly expensive (unless edited) and not very effective - except to get them to declare war on you.

23. No Quick Response option to a nuclear First Strike, making the entire concept of nukes idiotic, except for warmongers who love silly graphics.

24. Razing cities of millions is a pathetically absurd and barbaric option.

And a lot of other stuff I don't feel like writing. . . maybe later.

	14-05-2002 05:31									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Swissy Where did Civ3 go wrong? It happened to belong to a publisher, Hasbro Interactive, the parent company of which, Hasbro, did not want to remain in the software publishing business. Got sold to a publisher, Infogrammes, a company which is only concerned with the timely output of profitable games. A company who knows how to tailor their product for maximum profit, takeing a game design and breaking it into a game and an XP.

Indeed.

We know we re getting screwed when a game that shouldn't yet even be considered beta it is so flawed, appears on the market just in time for the Christmas buying rush - and does so without a scenario-builder. That was one of the most vital aspects of Civ 2. Infogrames figured out they can sell that separately to the suckers for more cash.

	14-05-2002 05:34									#19
	Re: Re: Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Coracle ... Don't anyone give me this "we expected too much" crap ...

Oh, but it is.

	14-05-2002 05:37									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Interesting take Coracle. Its interesting to see that the complaints fall into three main categories.

1. Features that were in previous Civ games and got pulled. Stuff like diplomats, caravans, espionage, etc. I guess we expected these to be in since they were classic Civ, but were shocked to see they weren't.

2. AI and game bugs. Stuff like the ICSing AI, and poor game stability. Perhaps a few more months of betas might have sorted this out.

3. New features that were good ideas implemented poorly. Culture for example was a cool idea but the implementation was far from perfect. 3D graphics also probably fall here too. Civ3 graphics were awful, but they could have been better.

So if Civ III had been delayed say, six months, and a less buggy product with better AI, all the features of the older Civ games and better implementation of new concepts, how would Civ III have fared?

(Fitz! Long time no see...)

	14-05-2002 05:46									#21
	Suffering from ads?

Coracle, do you still play the game? Just out of curiosity.

	14-05-2002 05:49									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Then, all the arguments of 'I love it' or 'I hate it' are largely subjective. That means that the designers probably didn't 'go wrong' so much as they changed directions in a way that many Civ2 / SMAC fanatics do not like. If total units sold is the measure, I think the designers will have 'gone right' by the time the thing is done. But that's just my guess.

The problem is not that the designers went a direction that I didn't like or expect.. the problem is that the designers did not go ANYWHERE AT ALL!

What innovative features shipped with civ III?
- Culture. (I like it, it needs some more tweaking, but it's a good idea.)
- New format for trading and espionage. (course espionage is near-useless, and due to bad ai design, trading is almost the same.)
- small wonders (good idea, but hardly a brilliant innovation)
- resources (excellent idea, still needs tweaking)

They're cool, but they are hardly stupendous, and they all need more work.

I would easily give all of those features for a solid AI, or for a faster game. Even the slow gameplay I can get around, I have a good computer but the AI issues piss me off. To date I have finished two games of Civ III, one right after I bought the game (the day it came out), and one after the 1.21 patch came out. After the first game, I shelved it because the AI pissed me off. Hoping that the patch had fixed things, I played again, and have re-shelved the game because the AI is still not fixed.

To those who enjoy demeaning other people's skills and adaptive ability: it took me a few starter games to get into the swing of things, but both games that I finished were at the same level of play as my (many) Civ II games (regent/prince, space race victory). Look down on that if you will, but I have no interest in spending the extra time that an increaced difficulty level would demand.

	14-05-2002 06:20									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Shadowstrike So if Civ III had been delayed say, six months, and a less buggy product with better AI, all the features of the older Civ games and better implementation of new concepts, how would Civ III have fared?

If they had waited 6 months to initially release the game, the fans would be up in arms as much if not more as they are today.

besides, speaking for myself, I am glad they released the game when they did. hey, I got 6 months out of a game that I really enjoyed. I'll trade that anyday for a few bugs and annoyances. Maybe you won't, thats your prerogative, but I will be playing the game while the same arguments about the flaws are posted ad naseum. Who is the winner here? Me who has a game that he likes to play on a regular basis, or you (not you in particular shadowstrike) who continually complain about the game not living up to your expectations.

Has a game ever completely lived up to my expectations? Probably not. I suppose if I knew anything about designing games or could afford to have a game tailored to my desires I would be absolutely satisfied. Well, that is not reality. There are going to be problems with all games, there are problems with Civ3. There were problems with Civ2 problems with SMAX, problems with Civ1. To think otherwise, that these previous games were perfect or bug-free would be foolhardy. Indeed, these other games (except for civ1) received similar critisicms in their birthing stage.

I think the current critisisms of civ3 are primarily nostalgia based. I remember the joy I had when I played Civ1. The joy I had when I played civ2 (ignoring SMAX which I found to be oftentimes dull). Just like everything else about that time in my life, everything seems simpler and better. Is this true? Of course not. If i think hard enough, I can remember bad parts of my life then as well as bad parts of the civ games. I don't know what games some of you have been playing, Civ2 and SMAX, but the versions I was playing were as flawed with annoyances and bugs as civ3, if not more so. IMO, I think that Civ3 (for all its flaws) is a massive improvement in the series. Is it as great as I thought it would be? Of course not. My imagination is far superior to anything yet possible in a game, and I suspect that most people's are as well. As stated before, that may be the hangup. After 6 years of Civ2, surely the formula could be perfected? Well, that's just not the way life works. The mousetrap has been improved, but can never be perfected as long as there are millions of different perceptions of what the best mousetrap should be.

Thanks

	14-05-2002 06:21									#24
	Re: Re: Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Coracle 1. Not having scenario-building, and a cheat mode, as in Civ 2 was a rip-off.

Hey Coracle. You always seem so irritated at no scenario support. Could you point me to any scenario you've created for any game ever? You know since it's so important to you there must be at least one map or scenario or something you've released somewhere? Right? Otherwise well you'd be kinda talking out your ass.

	14-05-2002 06:28									#25
	Re: Re: Re: Where Did Civ3 Go Wrong? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MOHonor Hey Coracle. You always seem so irritated at no scenario support. Could you point me to any scenario you've created for any game ever? You know since it's so important to you there must be at least one map or scenario or something you've released somewhere? Right? Otherwise well you'd be kinda talking out your ass.

That's why it smells so bad in here!

	14-05-2002 06:38									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Laiquendi The problem is not that the designers went a direction that I didn't like or expect.. the problem is that the designers did not go ANYWHERE AT ALL! -- Snip I would easily give all of those features for a solid AI, or for a faster game. Even the slow gameplay I can get around, I have a good computer but the AI issues piss me off. To date I have finished two games of Civ III, one right after I bought the game (the day it came out), and one after the 1.21 patch came out. After the first game, I shelved it because the AI pissed me off. Hoping that the patch had fixed things, I played again, and have re-shelved the game because the AI is still not fixed.

They went simpler. Many people hate that.

As for AI... The Civ3 AI has given me more challenges than Civ, Civ2 or SMAC ever did, combined. I don't see it every game, and it is easy to learn what it will do, but given roughly equal odds in a modern war it will give any player a run for his or her money. Not if the player prepares traps based on predictable behaviour, but just go into a war from a peace time stance with a couple hundred units per side and you will see some things to set you back in all probability.

And on the topic of AI, why is that when the AI acted 'human' and used the 'best' strat of always getting what ever it could from all other civs for tech... too many people snarled and yelled and screamed until the designers put a break on that behaviour???

This makes no sense to me. Give us better AI you t*rds. NO. Not that GOOD!

	14-05-2002 06:45									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Where did Civ3 go wrong? Hmm, let me see if I can name a few items that I think effected the enjoyment of Civ3 for me:

1. No Wonder Movies.

2. Advisors. I really miss the mini-movies of the advsors in Civ2 (where they bicker amongst themselves).

3. Multiplayer support - enough said (even though I'm estatic that it will be included in the expansion).

These are the only major deletions from Civ3 that I really miss when I play the game. Because of this lack of "feel" in Civ3, I myself have not played the game in the past few months...my roommate and I have since returned to playing Civ2 and CTP2 (modded, of course).

Well, for what ever it's worth, that's my two cents on the subject.

	14-05-2002 06:54									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have some gripes but it would have been good if they allowed you to trade, buy or sell units to the other civs. GIven the MPPs, why can't we beef up some other civ, let them take the eventual fall a la the Cold War.

	14-05-2002 07:40									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What about the fact that Civ III was the first game to take away from what was in previous Civs? Sure Civ II and SMAC cut a few things, but they were mostly filler, but they both focused more on adding. How does Apolyton feel about that?

	14-05-2002 07:44									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think Corale gets it right - Civ 3 was rushed. It was buggy. It has interesting ideas but they were done poorly. Maybe it will turn into a decent game with time, I dunno. It leaves me with a real sour taste at times and I've lost a lot of respect for Sid over it. It used to be that his name was a sign of quality play. I also really liked what Brian Reynolds brought to the game his two turns at bat. I can't say the same for the current team. I will admit the AI is in many ways better and I love that, but... In other areas the new game rules make that AI just as lost as I am - I'm thinking of espionage here, what a wasted effort that was. And not having iron, etc. Too many good things left out - wonder movies, the social engineering from SMAC, I loved that. It goes on. You know the drill.

I resent the notion that us oldies don't "get" the new game. Perhaps we're best positioned to see what's lacking. I know that when I was younger I was far less critical than I am now. BTW, I'm not geriatric or anything like that. I'm in my early 30s and I'm probably not the only one here in that range.