14-05-2002 22:09									#1
	How conduct an ancient era war? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Situation: warlord, middle ancient era,
5 cities, closest is egypt with 3 cities and
pop 1,1,3. Military advisor, compared to egypt you have a strong military.

This is before embassies. How do you successfully conduct a war?

attact city of 1 with?
2 warriors?
horseman and warrior?

Fear is by time get a couple swordsmen
and horsemen, egypt will be defended with spearman.

Is there a way to goad the AI on the other side of Egypt to attack at the same time?
Score of 3 civs is within 5 points of each other, so not much bigger. Less pop for me but more warriors.

Normally I would build infrastructure first.
Trying to learn if there is another alternative.

thanks for the advice.

	14-05-2002 22:19									#2
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The way I do things is that I simply rush out as many Warriors as you can early on, and charge them into cities. Sure, you'll lose a lot, but you'll be constantly making them as well. By the time that you don't need warriors anymore, then they should be completely overrun.

Where in Colorado do you hail from?

	14-05-2002 22:38									#3
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I would normally attack those cities with horsemen. I only use warriors for peace keeping. Since the horseman can be able to retrieve from battle, there are better chance that they will survive the battle. Plus, horseman are fast and we need to strike quick before the enemy fortify their cities with spearman. Even if they have spearman, that's no problem; two or three horsemen will overrun a spearman without any problem. On the other hand, the warrior is no match for spearman.

	14-05-2002 22:40									#4
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Ah, an excellent predicament.

A little more info please:

What civ are you?
Who is on the other side of Egypt?
What technologies are the three of you up to?
Are any of Egypt's cities on hills?
Are any of Egypt's cities directly adjacent to hills or mountains?
(but not with a river in between)
Who has horses?
Does Egypt's size-3 city have any desirable resources or bonuses?

Or you could just post the file.

	14-05-2002 22:42									#5
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Horsemen are fine till pikemen show up (with feudalism). Of course, also beware hoplites, not only that they're strong, you'll also trigger the greek golden age which can be a pain in the butt.

Swordsmen are powerful but way too slow, use them only on standard maps or lesser.

	14-05-2002 22:45									#6
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It doesn't matter what the Egyptian has, you need to attack immediately before they run out of land to expand and focus their attention on you. If you are the weaker civ, try to attack their newly formed cities and match your army directly to their capital, that would force them to sign a peace treaty and probably turn over some of their techs to you.

	14-05-2002 22:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Horsemen are fine till pikemen show up (with feudalism).

Yup, I would stay away from those pikemen until I can upgrade my horsemen to knights.

	14-05-2002 22:54									#8
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all other things equal, warrior vs warrior is 1:1.
you'll need numerical superiority.
if you can get horse before they get spear, it's 2:1.
if they get spear, then it's 2:2, same results as warrior versus warrior so again, you'll need numerical superiority. remember that now in 1.21, there's no auto-retreat for horses.
if you get swords, then its 3:2. even if they have spears, you will most likely win until they get swords to counterattack.
i would wait until I have a few swordsmen. but that's playing it safe and assuming you get swords before they do.

	14-05-2002 23:00									#9
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I like to attack with horseman - the added mobility allows you to quickly overrun an empire. Since this is early in the game, there won't be many roads, so high movement is even more important. Yes, Swordmen have better attack/defend stats but at the end of the day it's about sheer military logistics - you need to overwhelm in numbers in the correct position. This also cuts down on resistance, although that isn't such a problem in the early game.

	15-05-2002 01:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Captain remember that now in 1.21, there's no auto-retreat for horses.

You mean the horseman unit won't be able to retreat from battle no more?

	15-05-2002 01:59									#11
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Horsemen rock. Build chariots. Lots of 'em. They're cheaper to build. Meanwhile, hoard gold. Then, discover horseback riding and upgrade them to horsemen. Then kill. Trust me, it works. Same idea as the warrior -> swordsmen upgrade, but cheaper and it provides you with fast units. True, swords are 3/2, so I usually bring a few of them along too.

-Arrian

	15-05-2002 02:01									#12
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aztecs and the jaguar warriors. gotta love it.

	15-05-2002 02:10									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger You mean the horseman unit won't be able to retreat from battle no more?

They still do, just not always anymore.

	16-05-2002 01:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Ah, an excellent predicament. A little more info please: What civ are you? Who is on the other side of Egypt? What technologies are the three of you up to? Are any of Egypt's cities on hills? Are any of Egypt's cities directly adjacent to hills or mountains? (but not with a river in between) Who has horses? Does Egypt's size-3 city have any desirable resources or bonuses? Or you could just post the file.

Definitely saved the game, this is one I want to replay the ancient era a couple of times to get the hang of it. First time with 7 civs.

Civ==germany
land mass 6 civs & me on elogated H continent with fat middle. {ok will find the file}

ger- north central
egypt-- 3 cities in line blocking access to jungle {& rubber later}

SE- weak china
SW- med rome
NE of china- persia
SEE- Russia, huge land mass under control

tech tree, actually right now just ended ancient era, but want to play back and learn from mistakes. About 1/2 to 2/3rd thru tech tree.

Key resource: I have Iron and Egypt does not.

don't know if cities were across rivers, did not notice any hills.

I have horses.

Egypt does not have any key resources, just know from previous games, egypt plays high score games and if can eliminate early should be easier in later game.

Actually since I have played to end of ancient, the capital city was hidden under fog by city of 3. Do not know its size, but think it is only 2 or 3.

Problem is everyone is about at navigation and go for Egypt either China or Persia will end run and plop a city behind my city line.

In present game, just 1st turn in middle ages, was able to keep Persia out, but missed and China landed a city. I beat out another Egyptian settler team by one turn.

In previous games I have tried to build defense and then worry about offense, but don't think that has any hope of succeeding in current game.

Annoying that Russia declares war on me. Score was about : Ger=128, Russia=119, rest of known between 85..112. Both China and Egypt allow free passage so can attack a border city.

To answer Arrian, don't remember chariots in build list. I will have to check to see if they are available to Germany. First time started using catapults as got tired of losing a few units to russian invaders.

Any suggestions on how war mongering to be?
I was assuming taking on one other civ was about the maximum. Many it is not. 2 civs are hidden on another continent that my galleys
can't reach so have no data on their strength.

Trip is correct, horsemen do sometimes retreat and sometimes not.

This is hard to explain. I will see if I can find a good version of the game and make it available.

	16-05-2002 03:10									#15
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If you have Iron and Egypt doesn't, then take out their 3-pop city with Swordsmen (I suggest 6). Leave them with the other two, negotiate peace and extort techs / money, and turn the Swordsmen to the next enemy...

Anyway, I would worry about Persia and Rome a LOT more.

	16-05-2002 03:41									#16
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that approach did not work well. I was hoping to eliminate Egypt. By the time I had 2 horse and 4 swords, Egypt had squirted between china, headed towards persia and planted 2 new cities. Weird thing is starting to increase swords and horse, Russia decides to declare war.

I have not had horrible experiences with rome yet, but like keeping some civs between me and persia. Don't want to mess with them in the ancient era.

	16-05-2002 04:15									#17
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Don;t worry about eliminating them... just damage them irreparably. They then becomes pawns, vassals, punching bags, etc.

	16-05-2002 04:24									#18
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If they do start building spearmen, research mathematics as soon as you can and get some catapults to go along with your invasion force. Two or three. The more the better. Then attack each city with at least two or three swordmen with a couple horsemen for good measure (good for finishing off gravely wounded spearmen).

But this is just my strategy. It may be much more difficult if the Egyptians have their war chariots.

	16-05-2002 07:49									#19
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A powerful opening strategy is Swordsmen Conquest.

The basic outline is to build 4 to 6 cities. Research and claim Iron. Build warriors. Save gold. Upgrade warriors to swordsmen (40 gold each). Conquer the nearest enemy.

About 10 swordsmen is suggested. This is enough to take out most Ancient age empires. By this time the enemy may have many cities, but that is a good thing, not a bad thing. There is little chance that the enemy has enough units to defend against a stack of ten swordsmen. If the enemy makes demands before you are ready for war, go ahead and give them what they ask for. You will get it all back and more after the war.

Swordsmen Conquest works great up to Emperor level on small and standard size maps. On large or huge maps, fast units may be better to cover the longer distances. On tiny maps attacking with warriors is better.

If there is no iron, consider horses, or archers. If possible capture iron with these units.

	16-05-2002 18:26									#20
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Sometimes you just have to attack with what you have in order to deny the AIs any building space or resources near you.
Two examples:

1) I have both Rome and Persia as neighbors. Rome built a city on a hill next to iron so I can only bother them until I get iron. I just build cities close to the iron and wait for a good time later on to attack. Meanwhile in this regent game Persia only has it's capital so I attack with warriors and kill his settlers, then lurk near his one city until I get archers over there to eliminate Persia.

2) Playing as Babylon I again get Persia as my neighbor. There is iron near the Persian capital so I attack with the bowman to stop his expansion towards me, then build and get iron. I fight Persia in a few wars and win one or two cities and get to the chivalry & gunpowder era. I have no saltpeter. So I build ten knights and start a war and first take his capital which was defended by at least one muskeeter.

	16-05-2002 18:40									#21
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WOW, I never imagined I would get such good comments when I started this thread. One thought really stands out, I have been too friendly in the ancient era. Don't have time until this weekend, but now want to try different approaches to this same game. It seems like I have waiting too long for a 3:1 advantage and thought only of destroying instead of hindering advancement via military.

Again thanks for the advice. I definitely need a better balance between military and builder approaches. Builder only does not seem to work too well with 8 civs.

	16-05-2002 18:54									#22
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Planetfall,

I also suggest that whichever unit you decide to use primarily (swords or horses) you build their predecessor unit (warrior/chariot) in large numbers. Save money and upgrade. Swords are more expensive, which is one of the many reasons I prefer horsemen, but whichever works. I generally attempt to start the rampage around 600-500bc. I use the predecessor units because they can be built quickly, and it's easy to save gold early on. The whole idea is a single-minded drive to build an army which will crush your neighbors. Like Theseus, Txurce & I have been discussing in the strat forum, even the "landgrab" becomes secondary. Why care about beating the AI to a city site (unless we're talkin' about iron or horses here) if you are gonna take it soon anyway? Concentrate you resources, both mineral and financial, on one goal: a powerful (and I suggest mobile) attack force.

-Arrian

	16-05-2002 20:16									#23
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Arrian,

Thanks. I have focused too much on land grab. Time to backup and replay, should be interesting. Looks like my assumption was correct: late game was bogging down with minutia and small gains because of opportunity mistakes in ancient era. Rather than completing a game this weekend, I am going to try different methods of playing the ancient Era and stopping when get to Middle age.

	30-05-2002 21:20									#24
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What an interesting approach: play a full game and then go back and replay part of ancient era.

Biggest questions:
1. Does it normally take 5 warriors & 2 horse to conquer a 3 pop city with 2 spearmen? {any less and I get smeared. Had to restart 3 times til got the numbers right}
2. How much do you normally need to get a small city with 1 spearman defending?
3. How long do you use military? all the way through the ancient era? i.e., when do you switch to production improvement.

As suspected it is possible to remove Egypt in ancient era. Also removed 3 Chinese cities. One concern is if try to remove China will be adjacent to Persia, Rome and Russia. Don't think Persia and Rome would be good to tackle right now. But still no GL's.

There is more open land now but data does not yet show shift in game. Here is the data for 350bc


Game1-- no ancient era warfare
score=120
civs alive= 7
approval=72%, #1
productivity=80%, #1
top cities= #3
techs needed to exit ancient era=8
cities= 10
military: warriors=13
spear=1
sword=1
horse=2

Game2-- ancient era warfare
score=108
civs alive= 6 {egypt gone, China 1/3 cities gone}
approval=71%, #3
productivity=76%, #1
top cities= #1
techs needed to exit ancient era=6
cities= 9
military: warriors=8
spear=1
sword=4
horse=2

	30-05-2002 21:32									#25
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Are you building swordsmen and horsemen straight-up? If so, I have to ask... why? Discover ironworking, but do not hook up your iron, build some veteran warriors. Discover the wheel, but not horseback riding. Build some chariots. Science to 10%, research horseback riding, hook up iron, upgrade.

For example, I just finished a game last night in which my attack began in 350bc (what a coincidence!). I launched this attack with 22 horsemen and 11 swordsmen. Every single one of those was originally a predecessor unit that I upgraded. When I was done, I had totally destroyed 2 civs and reduced the other two to 1 and 2 cities, respectively. This rampage also generated 6 GLs.

-Arrian

	30-05-2002 21:40									#26
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Yes, was doing it straight up. Forgot about your comments about upgrading later. Ok this weekend, game 3 trying to follow your model.

This method of replaying games from 1650bc to 350bc and stopping makes a short and yet very interesting game out of a long game.

Thanks again for the great ideas.

	31-05-2002 00:13									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They still do, just not always anymore.

I believe it's a 50/50 chance of retreating.

Does anyone know if there are modifiers to this?

	31-05-2002 01:33									#28
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There is a modifier based upon experience. Elites and vets have better chances of retreat than regulars. I don't know exactly what the percentages are.

Planetfall,

Let us know how it goes... I admit it's not a 100% formula for success, but it usually works from a strict military standpoint (I'm in it for the leaders, so a military victory alone isn't good enough).

-Arrian

	31-05-2002 01:35									#29
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planetfall:

While I am a big fan of ultra-early war with Warriors, I am an even bigger fan of upgrading them to Swordsmen!! What are you still doing with all those Warriors? I know they're expensive to upgrade, but it should be your HIGHEST priority.

Ghengis Brom:

The odds of retreat increase with promotions, I believe as follows:

Conscript: 40%
Regular: 50%
Veteran: 60%
Elite: 70%

As you can see, it is incredibly important to manage your forces well, and get all units up to the higher levels ASAP.

	31-05-2002 01:59									#30
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Planetfall, it sounds like you kind of squeezed in on this landmass. Theseus has grand visions of warrior wars followed by horsemen wars followed by swordsmen wars followed by knight wars. Now, all due respect to Theseus (he's surely a much more skilled warmonger than me) but I don't know exactly how he does it. I just never seem to have the time.

So I will say this: forget attacking with warriors. Save them and upgrade them, then attack with swordsmen. Also, forget about egypt. You said they have no iron, that means they have no swordsmen, no pikemen, no knights. You can take them out at your leaisure. I would lay the smackdown on the romans before they can properly amass their very powerful legionaries. Carve out some space for yourself in that direction and reduce Rome to a vassal state. Then turn your attention to egypt and their puny spearmen.

My rule, especially in initially cramped quarters: The first war is with a wave of swordsmen. Take a city here and a city there, get resources of all types from any and all civs near you borders. As your force of about a dozen or so swordsmen begins to dwindle or get stuck garrisoning newly annexed cities, hit chivalry and renew the campaigning with 15-20 knights. By the time people get proper defenders against knights (musketmen), you should have filled out your empire and should be starting to run away with the tech/money/land/power.