19-05-2002 18:29									#31
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Where did I say everyone should go around randomly killing people? I said that I didn't want any griefers or random PKs, all I want is to have all options of player interaction available. I'm not going to go around killing everyone I see, but my character is going to be confrontational to certain kinds people. Not that I would kill them on sight, either - I'd talk to them first.

	19-05-2002 20:01									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I understand you wanting PvP as an option, and actually agree with you. It is an important part of RPGs. But with the majority of MMOGs I've played, people like you would be in the absolute minority.

Why hunt monsters when you can steal stuff off others?
Why talk to them when you can just start attacking, and get an extra hit in?
Why fight higher-level players, when you can kill lower level players in 3 hits?

Allowing PvP without any incentive for player to not go around killing everyone they see is the biggest problem with MMOG's IMHO. The easiest way to get more stuff is to kill other players. The net effect is that only high-level players are safe, and people newer to the game have to either spend their time running or safely in towns (not getting any more exp/money).

Please forgive my bitterness. I played Dransik for a few months, but got sick of it as the majority of players became PK's. I ended up being thankful when I was surrounded by the "safety" of monsters, and spent a far amount of time just running away from PKs instead of levelling. Because I couldn't hunt much, I couldn't gain levels, and higher level players had did a riduclous amount of damage compared to the lower players health.

I had good enough reflexes that I wasn't killed much at all (a total of 3 times), but constantly having to run away spoilt the fun for me.

	19-05-2002 22:09									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree with you, sort of. There are some major design flaws in the current MMORPGs, and PvP - among other things - can't be handled very well under the current design of most of the games.

But there is no reason these things can't be handled better in the future...then again, most companies are just making EQ clones, and not bothering to improve the games at all.

	20-05-2002 07:57									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess we'll have to agree to agree then
(Theres a first for everything)

	20-05-2002 13:22									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

IIRC didn't Daggerfall have a system of ridiculously powerful city guards (NPC) which kept the peace? Could not a system such as that be used fairly easily to police the MP RPGs???

If outlaws found it very dangerous to enter town or more civilised regions at least some of the incentive to PK would go -- particularly if levelling up could only be performed in a Guild Hall (in town)!

SG[1]

	22-05-2002 17:41									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Osweld, if you are prepared to try out a text MUD I think you would thoroughly enjoy Xyllomer. The character interaction is brilliant because all the senior players and moderators want it that way and enforce their standards of conduct. The world regularly has guild or faction wars but grief killing is practically unknown. If you think you got grief killed, you probably transgressed some custom you were not aware of - and even then you would normally be chased off, not slaughtered.

I thnk the problem with MMORPGs is their size. If only one person in a hundred is out to make life a misery for other players they can impact heavily on everyone. Since all the mainstream games accept death as something even a careful character will suffer occasionally and a rash player will encounter frequently, the PK has little to lose even if caught occasionally. They're normally more potent than the guards or know all the tricks about how to avoid them. No MMORPG is a game where you can get all your excitement within hailing distance of a guard anyway. By making you too scared to leave town the PK is already winning - your enjoyment of the game is reduced even when they are not there.

	23-05-2002 15:42									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

PKs exist in MMORPGs because these games are all about killing and there are no laws enforced by the system.
In pnp RPGs you could play without killing anything and still have fun. Is there any computer RPG in which a non-violent strategy earns as many or more experience/rewards than a violent one? (I am not counting mud's here, but mass market commercial products).
What makes killing monsters less evil than killing players avatars? If you really role-play I mean? The problem with PKs is they are monsters that have been put in places they are too tough for players. Thus we either lack a Dungeon Master or a system that makes killing equally easy for all levels. (That way a high level character who doesn't want to get killed would hire bodyguards, which is sound money use even in the real world in some places)

With so many players at once and (almost) no DM, the players actions can't be followed intelligently and reacted upon. In pnp RPGs,
you could play in cities, investigating and even killing in towns, and having a good game because there was a dungeon/game master who knew the players and was able to adapt. After 3 games where the players consistently went in town and, before leaving, robbed and killed an apothecary, they fall on a tougher apothecary and get killed in turn. So bad for them, but that may teach them a lesson, that they need money and not just swords. In MMORPGs, none of that. You can neither punish players for misbehaving (i.e. using backdoors in the system like having money and no penalty for robbing it, and no police whatsoever) nor give them a carrot when they play intelligently.