15-05-2002 00:37									#1
	The future of MMOG's? Suffering from ads?

Do you think games like Everquest, wwIIonline, and Camelot really have a huge following? I mean. I enjoy these huge massive mplayer games. But time is my issue. Who has the time to actually excel in these games.I do enjoy my wwii game. But I see people get soooo addicted to it. I just dont understand, last night I met a guy named Kirk226 who quit his job, divorced his wife just so he could play 18 hours a day...... And this is only the begining of MMORPG's. Soon, more realistic, more detailed. How do we deal with this? There will be a whole freakin generation of MMOG addicts in the next century

.

	15-05-2002 00:44									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

MMORPG's aren't really games, they're lifestyle choices ... I enjoyed playing Camelot for a while, but when I realised that I would have to play for about a million hours before I could even do any RvR then i gave up .... why does it take so long to level up in those games? ... it makes the experience of playing them more like a teeth extraction than a game.

What type of person must you be to divorce your wife to play a computer game more ... ? Society is perhaps better off without people like that.

Time is indeed the big issue ... in order to play a MMORPG properly you need to immerse yourself in the game's environment, but they're always so dull and lifeless that there doesn't seem to be any point in doing so.

	15-05-2002 01:02									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

My old Ultima Online guild was a group of people that only played 6-8 hours a week...it was fun to play the game with a group of people that weren't obsessed for a change.

But yes, there is a big following, and it'll just get bigger. The game's a drug, like it or not.

	15-05-2002 03:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Exactly. If some of my friends were keen on playing MMORPG's then it would be great fun 'cos we could meet up, hang out for a while and kill a few monsters ... pretty neat.

There are too many trolls, griefers and 1337 kiddies playing the games. Whenever I find a group of people who are friendly and mature I have lots of fun playing ... but when I log on again a couple of days later they've leveled up several times and I can't play with them anymore. It's a shame.

	15-05-2002 05:34									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Poet, I agree. Society is better off. But then, we have to pay for those guys anyway.


getting back.

The game of WW2Online is fun. But again, I dont understand this. I see the AHC/GHC commanders...these guys are hardcore. They direct the fighting, put the divisions and giv orders to Squad leaders. Direct attacks/Defense. They are 24:7.....no rest for them. Ask what they do in real life ; there answer is usually nothing. Which amazes me.

Ya i ****in griefers and that stupid l33t ****. That pisses me off. I cant want for bug proofed software. And I certainly cant wait for the Global Welfare state ; so I have more time on my hands to actually play and advance in these things. Till then, 6 hours on Saturday is all I can pull.

	15-05-2002 05:40									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree. Even games like Diablo2 suffer from such obsessions. I like to play with casual gamers. Some of those guys in D2 are so hard core they really laugh at you when you prefer to go through the game with "lesser" weapons. The game is more than having uber equipment. Well maybe not .


This is why I never have played a MMOG or any game that has a monthly fee. First off, I would have to play many hours in that month to get my money's worth. I just can't predict if I'll have enough time to do so. Once in a blue moon I actually find women who will go out with me . That throws a wrench in my computer gaming habits.

While that new star wars online game looks amazing. I'll have to wait and see.

Until then no game with monthly fees for me

	15-05-2002 05:53									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Most mplayer/mmog's are pay. Even sony station went subscription! The ad market is crap. You cant run forever cheapskate.


10$ a month isnt that much. Just a few pack of smokes or half tank of gas for me.

	15-05-2002 05:55									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

rip off. That's well over $100 a year. And don't tell me that isn't a lot of money .

No computer game is worth that much .

	15-05-2002 05:59									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, that is alot of money. And its actually 120$ a year

However, I do believe I get my bang for the buck.


Gamespy and Zone.com are also considering going subscription

	15-05-2002 06:49									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thats assuming you are still playing the game for a year. How often does that happen these days?

	15-05-2002 12:57									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dissident rip off. That's well over $100 a year. And don't tell me that isn't a lot of money . No computer game is worth that much .

Heh.

That's 13-15 movies in a theater, or about 30 hours of entertainment for $100.

Or you can pay $100 to play a fun game online.

Even if you only play one hour a week (unheard of), that's 52 hours of entertainment. I say movies aren't worth that much.

	16-05-2002 06:10									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

and your not even counting the buttered cardboa......i mean popcorn! 4.50 a bucket!

	16-05-2002 08:31									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Star Wars Galaxies is about to come out. It takes place on (I believe) 8 worlds, each larger than Everquest.

The future is Sony MMOGs.

	16-05-2002 14:13									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That's how I make my purchasing decisions for all computer games. If I think I'm going to have 30 hours of fun playing it, then a £30 game is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment available. For multiplayer games I can - and do- arrange a day when a whole crowd of us gather to play boardgames or pnp RPG's, but they are hard to do now we have all spread out and got social lives and jobs. Not possible to do for a couple of hours on a wet wednesday evening though. Thats where online RPG's make some impact. Gaming with at least a little social interaction and its relatively cheap as long as you have time to get 10 hours of fun out of the game every month.

I'm not looking forward to SWG because I expect it to be based upon Sony/Verant's previous principles, i.e. make everything worthwhile take inordinate amounts of time to achieve. Camelot is a far better game for non-fanatics because it is much easier to gain medium to high level. Unfortunately that means it endures some criticism from the 24:7 players who don't have enough to challenge them once they hit the Xp ceiling.

	16-05-2002 19:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Star Wars Galaxies is about to come out. It takes place on (I believe) 8 worlds, each larger than Everquest. The future is Sony MMOGs.

How is that possible!!!!?

I play EQ on Sonystation occasionally. And the size of that world is immense already.

	16-05-2002 19:07									#16
	Suffering from ads?

I spend about 170$ a year on MMOG. EQ and ww2online. I think i will also get a sony station subscription for infantry. I only will play these games maybe 80 hours a year...but they keep me busy on those rainy days when theres nothing better to do.

	17-05-2002 14:38									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by faded glory How is that possible!!!!? I play EQ on Sonystation occasionally. And the size of that world is immense already.

I
believe what they want to try to do is have far more players per universe using the sort of dynamic server loading that Asherons Call pioneered. So instead of 30 different EQ's there will be maybe only 6 SWG's provided they can get the load balancing right.

Of course EQ has now had 3 or 4 expansion sets, so SWG may not start 10x bigger, but it could easily grow bigger and bigger as each world gets more content added.

	17-05-2002 15:32									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Those online games like UO and even Diablo II tend to be worse than reality for me, even if reality does stink, I prefer it to any of these games. I say, the main reason is Player-Killing.

I read about one case of player-killing, one guy in Ultima Online was playing as though he actually lived in this world, he was making an honest living (probably as a guild leader's jester or something, because that was how he was dressed in the screenies). Three strangers in armour and heavy cloaks show up at his doorstep.

"My first guests! Prithee come in for some ale!"

The three strangers gladly accept his invitation and walk into the cosy little abode this guy built up for himself, and have a mug of quality Britannian ale at the table each.

"Tis nice to have guests every once in a while. Can I get thee anything else?"

The poor fool didn't see what was coming at him.

"Corp Por"

"Corp Por"

"Corp Por"

The three cast a spell on him that killed him. Next screenshot in the story, the guy is lying dead, with everything in his house, including the clothes he was wearing, taken away.

The perpetrators got away with no punishment, as there was no laws preventing them from murdering and stealing from someone.

Can you imagine anything like that in reality? Kinda makes me glad that magics like that aren't around in reality. And makes me glad that there are actually laws to follow in reality as well.

	17-05-2002 15:50									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There are a lot of articles on the web about PK activity. Richard Garriott etc pioneered this sort of dynamic world and were not expecting the kind of antisocial amoral mass murderers to arise. Since it became apparent that a minority of players absolutely would not abide by any kind of moral code without rigid external enforcement all games have adapted their strategies.

In EQ and AC, for instance, unless you choose to activate your own PK status you cannot harm or be harmed by any other players. Special servers are set up for those who want PK anarchy or tribal/racial/guild PK wars. Other games (AO, DAoC) make lots of areas safe but put the richest rewards in PK zones so that you get to grow up safe but brave the shark infested waters later after you have had time to make allies and become confident in using your own skills.

Its no longer a PK'ers paradise out there since companies found they made lots more money from the casual gamers than the hardcore 24/7 elite and most of the hardcore stayed playing anyway.

	17-05-2002 19:48									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by LordAzreal The three cast a spell on him that killed him. Next screenshot in the story, the guy is lying dead, with everything in his house, including the clothes he was wearing, taken away. The perpetrators got away with no punishment, as there was no laws preventing them from murdering and stealing from someone. Can you imagine anything like that in reality?

How thin is the veil of civilzation which we have drawn over the blood-thristy beast called man.

	17-05-2002 20:37									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold In EQ and AC, for instance, unless you choose to activate your own PK status you cannot harm or be harmed by any other players. Special servers are set up for those who want PK anarchy or tribal/racial/guild PK wars. Other games (AO, DAoC) make lots of areas safe but put the richest rewards in PK zones so that you get to grow up safe but brave the shark infested waters later after you have had time to make allies and become confident in using your own skills.

Which is why I don't waste my time with any of those games anymore.

Not only does taking away PvP make the game extremely boring and mundane, it kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has.


I hear Shadowbane(I think that's the name, anyways) will have open PvP, though.... I might give it a whirl when it comes out.

	17-05-2002 21:22									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

They all have +pvp servers (e.g. AC has Darktide) so anyone who wants kill or be killed anarchy can get it if they want to. Isn't that what you want?

Personally I think that unlimited PvP fails because it cannot be policed properly. In an anarchic society a wild killer can be tamed by having threats levelled against their person. If they kill enough innocent folk then a contract will be made. Someone equally skilled will hunt them down and kill them permanently. A ruthless mob may not be able to find him but might settle for killing his family and burning down his house. He ultimately has no escape from justice. In pvp games you can be invulnerable to players of lower level in the way that a real life person never could be to a bullet or arrow. You can log off for a week. You can't be tracked and your identity can't be broadcasted in an effective manner etc. Guilds can help protect their own and their online turf but its still pretty inadequate.

The original concept for the Middle Earth MMORPG with permanent death could have been very interesting to see. Would rampant PK have been quashed as powerful guilds took it upon themselves to enforce laws? Would crimes like murder have been possible to get away with when a player can reroll and go finger their murderer? How would people even approach monster hunting if a single mistake could ruin weeks of character development?

	17-05-2002 21:59									#23
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold They all have +pvp servers (e.g. AC has Darktide) so anyone who wants kill or be killed anarchy can get it if they want to. Isn't that what you want?

No, that's not what I want - seperating PvP from non-PvP creates a majority population of greifers. You get all of the worst poeple, and the most mindless of PKs, all compacted into one server.

That said, I still found those servers more fun then the regular ones... atleast there was more to it then just sitting on your butt waiting for a goblin to spawn.

quote: Personally I think that unlimited PvP fails because it cannot be policed properly.

Not really - it's because they can't be bothered to police it properly... or design the game properly, for that matter.


In my ideal MMoRPG, PvP would be dealt with much in the same fashion that will be in ALFA - PvP would be completely open, anyone of any level or class can attack or be killed by anyone else. Death would be permanent, unless someone can bring your corpse to a priest of sufficient power to raise you. Towns would have (mortal)Guards, and a legal system controled by the GMs (although this wouldn't neccisarily apply to all towns). From there on, it's mostly up to the players to decide how the game will be.

Granted, ALFA has the privilege of screening it players...

	18-05-2002 09:06									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Which is why I don't waste my time with any of those games anymore. Not only does taking away PvP make the game extremely boring and mundane, it kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has.

How does one relate to another? PvP certainly is and was not in the overwhelming cases of p-n-p RPG campaigns, I don't see how you can assert these campaigns to be boring.

I also don't see how prohibiting killing other PC's "kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has." Is that what you do with your characters in RPG campaigns: killing other PC's? How is that conducive to a good roleplaying experience?

	18-05-2002 12:37									#25
	Tired of ads?

Asheron's Call 2 is going to rule you all.

	18-05-2002 18:32									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How does one relate to another? PvP certainly is and was not in the overwhelming cases of p-n-p RPG campaigns, I don't see how you can assert these campaigns to be boring. I also don't see how prohibiting killing other PC's "kills any chance of creating a roleplaying atmosphere that the game has." Is that what you do with your characters in RPG campaigns: killing other PC's? How is that conducive to a good roleplaying experience?

In order to roleplay, players need to be able to interact with each other and taking away PvP takes away alot of possible interaction.

PvP is especially important when you are doing something as grand as a MMORPG, are we to expect that all of those hundreds of thousands of characters are all really nice and friendly people? and all of those ogres and trolls are actualy really nice fellows who just want to hang around with humans and camp goblin spawns?



Besides, a world where the only danger comes from a bunch of mindless AI creatures is extremely boring.

	19-05-2002 00:16									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Star Wars Galaxies is about to come out. It takes place on (I believe) 8 worlds, each larger than Everquest.

Slight correction in this statement

The info I heard was:

"Just one world in Star Wars Galaxies is the size of all Everquest. And there are eight worlds."

This may be read to mean that one world in SWG is the size of EQ, but, although there are seven other worlds, the other seven are not that big.

	19-05-2002 07:49									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Osweld In order to roleplay, players need to be able to interact with each other and taking away PvP takes away alot of possible interaction. ... Besides, a world where the only danger comes from a bunch of mindless AI creatures is extremely boring.

I disagree. There is a type of interaction other than hacking people's heads off, and that is talking to them. In this way, you can form a hunting party to take on monsters much too large to kill by yourself, or do quests in a group. That is what RPG's are all about, and NOT proving how 1337 your character is.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually enjoy going out on quests without the fear of being gang-banged by a group of players 10 or 20 levels about yourself and having no chance to survive.

	19-05-2002 09:01									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree. Killing each other is just one type of interaction. Sure, killings exist in the real world too, but they account for only a very small fraction of human interactions.

Other possible interactions include talking and helping each other out. That may be boring to some people, I reckon though most players aren't too keen on getting jumped by a group of immortal killers while they are just minding their own business.

	19-05-2002 16:39									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree with these sentiments.

An MMORPG without any form of PvP would be rather boring, and I don't think a specific PvP sever is the best solution because that just attracts all the griefers. However, I do think that PvP play should ideally be optional (such as in Camelot) where you either go to a specific game zone where PvP is enabled or somehow otherwise flag yourself as available for PvP combat.

Sometimes PvP is fun ... and an MMORPG would be at its best when people are free to play however they want, either with PvP or without ... and a person's taste for playing as such may well change from day to day. Playing in a frenzied PvP environment and in a relatively safe monster-killing environment should be sepearate and equally accessable to every player.