15-05-2002 20:17									#1
	Wonders Great and small.... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

'k...Og brought up another outstanding thing that Ramses and I had kicked around early on in the design of the game. We decided right off the bat that wonders really weren't an essential component of the free release, but they're so cool, who can resist having them in?!

So...let's talk about the Wonders of the Candle'Bre world....what are they, what do they do...how do you get 'em?

Og's first one was the "War College" - Essentially a peacetime means of training War Captains (and possibly Generals as well).

So...what should something like that cost, and should it have some other requirement (ie- in order to build a war college, you must have one War Captain in your service, and have built at least 4 Barracks....something like that).

-=Vel=-
(who is *bursting* with ideas, but not wanting to flood the board with them....want to hear what other folks think first!)

PS: Another "small wonder" - We just passed BHG's forum section in post count. Not bad for a week and a half!

	15-05-2002 20:41									#2
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Big Huge Vel.

I'm not sure about any specifics for the wonders ... as in terms of precise abilites or costings or whatever ... I will think about that, but I do have a few initial thoughts.

I think there should be more Great Wonders available than it is actually likely to be possible to build in one game. This could be achieved through making them very expensive or through giving them different requirements that don't overlap such as 'Must be in Infamy' or 'Must have X Honour points' or 'Must have X military units' or 'Must have X percentage of Pacifist civilians'. If all the Great Wonders are built every game then there seems little point in having them IMHO ...each time you play then the world would be pretty much the same. I never liked that feature in Civ, there was only 2 or 3 wonders i ever wanted or needed and getting them was so easy that there was never any feeling of accomplishment.

My thinking is that we should strive to make each game of Candle'Bre as different as possible from the last. This is gonna be the best feature about the Fate Engine IMHO, and a similar thing could be achieved through the wonders.

Any wonders that are so generally useful that the game would suffer without them (such as the War College) should be small wonders ... available to all factions and not too expensive. The Great Wonders should have far more powerful features and cost more, of course, but they should be tightly controlled.
How about a system where there are a certain number of Great Wonders written into the game code, say 30 of them, but only half that number (chosen at random) are available for any single game. This would mean that every game would throw up new situations and new challenges for the player.

... or something ...

	15-05-2002 20:45									#3
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Stoo...are you hardwired into my brain or something? *G* That thinking guided me when I was designing the tech trees, too! In my head, the game would end before you fully researched all three branches, so it would lend to the feel that each game is (or certainly can be) a very different experience.

That, plus the Fate Engine, PLUS the same methodology in mind where Wonders are concerned is just....awesome....

-=Vel=-
(putting my thinking cap on)

	15-05-2002 20:59									#4
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* FrustratedPoet disconnects the hardwire into Vel's brain.

* FrustratedPoet 's conspiracy has been exposed.

* FrustratedPoet starts to eat all incriminating material he has on the conspiracy.

* FrustratedPoet denies everything.



About the Tech Trees: I love the idea that it should be impossible to reach the top of every tech tree. However, wouldn't the system work even more towards creating a individual gaming experience if the Tech Trees weren't the same for every game?

This sounds to me like it would be a ***** to balance ... but ... if each step of the Tech Trees had 2 or 3 possible advances that could fill the space then the player would have to consider slightly different strategies for every game.
If the bonus to Cavalry attack and defense isn't available in MilTech slot 2 (or whatever) this game then the player would have to rethink their tactic of early-game Cav rushing since the tech that replaced it in MilTech slot 2, say bonuses to the defensive abilities of Infantry, would make that strat unviable.

Some players would hate this because it would ruin whatever current uber-strategy they had devised, or simply because it seems to work towards making things more awkward for the player, but I'd really like to see this implemented becuase it would add variety to a genre that I think is often guilty of predictablity. Balancing it properly would require some Big Huge Playtesting , but I'm up for that.

This would also increase the need for a decent Strategy Guide for all the newbies .... now who could we get to write that? ... I know! I'll email Prima straight away! .

EDIT: *sigh* I ran into the bad-language censor there ... all I wanted to say was that it would be a 'b1tch' to balance my idea... oh well ... I guess I'll just go and wash my dirty mouth out with soap.

	15-05-2002 21:23									#5
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I like that...it gives me a headache when I contemplate it, but I like it...lol

Not sure I can find a good way to implement it, but it'll make for an appealing mental puzzle to play with at work today...thank you!

-=Vel=-
* Velociryx stops lurking at 'poly, puts his thinking cap on, and gets to work re: wonders and re-balancing the game in light of WC's and Generals!

	15-05-2002 22:29									#6
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As long as we're considereing a War College and we're also considering Peaceful Artisan leaders there should also be a small wonder to address generation of Great Artists/Scientists. A kinna symetry so the game is not completely a war game ehhh?

	15-05-2002 22:41									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Good thought Og! Will turn my attention to that next...and here's my rough mock-up for the War College:
*****

The Wonders of Candle’Bre

The War College
Envisioned by Candle’Bre’s First King as a place where the Peers of the Realm could send their children to study the ways of the Nilrogg, should they ever return to threaten, the War College proved to be such a popular idea that others like it began springing up around the Kingdom. Since the Time of Turmoil in the realm of Candle’Bre, the War Colleges have been working seemingly ‘round the clock, training men to be leaders in the conflict that looms.

Classification: Minor Wonder

Cost To Build: 600g (takes 6 turns)

Pre-Requisites: Must have a War Captain in service at the time construction begins (Ed: Generals are far too busy to oversee such things as this, given the condition of the realm at game start), and have at least four Barracks built.

Effect: Train War Captains for 200g, or Generals for 1000g (training takes two turns for WC’s, four turns for Generals) (Ed: Consider this the “Associate’s Degree, and “BS degree” in the Art of War…lol)

Coolio Quote that might get worked into the completion somehow:

”Ho Lu said to him: "I have carefully perused your 13 chapters. May I submit your theory of managing soldiers to a slight test?"

Sun Tzu replied: "You may."

Ho Lu asked: "May the test be applied to women?"

The answer was again in the affirmative, so arrangements were made to bring 180 ladies out of the Palace. Sun Tzu divided them into two companies, and placed one of the King's favorite concubines at the head of each. He then bade them all take spears in their hands, and addressed them thus: "I presume you know the difference between front and back, right hand and left hand?"

The girls replied: Yes.

Sun Tzu went on: "When I say "Eyes front," you must look straight ahead. When I say "Left turn," you must face towards your left hand. When I say "Right turn," you must face towards your right hand. When I say "About turn," you must face right round towards your back."

Again the girls assented. The words of command having been thus explained, he set up the halberds and battle-axes in order to begin the drill. Then, to the sound of drums, he gave the order "Right turn." But the girls only burst out laughing.

Sun Tzu said: "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame."

So he started drilling them again, and this time gave the order "Left turn," whereupon the girls once more burst into fits of laughter.

Sun Tzu: "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers."

So saying, he ordered the leaders of the two companies to be beheaded. Now the king of Wu was watching the scene from the top of a raised pavilion; and when he saw that his favorite concubines were about to be executed, he was greatly alarmed and hurriedly sent down the following message: "We are now quite satisfied as to our general's ability to handle troops. If We are bereft of these two concubines, our meat and drink will lose their savor. It is our wish that they shall not be beheaded."

Sun Tzu replied: "Having once received His Majesty's commission to be the general of his forces, there are certain commands of His Majesty which, acting in that capacity, I am unable to accept."

Accordingly, he had the two leaders beheaded, and straightway installed the pair next in order as leaders in their place. When this had been done, the drum was sounded for the drill once more; and the girls went through all the evolutions, turning to the right or to the left, marching ahead or wheeling back, kneeling or standing, with perfect accuracy and precision, not venturing to utter a sound.

Then Sun Tzu sent a messenger to the King saying: "Your soldiers, Sire, are now properly drilled and disciplined, and ready for your majesty's inspection. They can be put to any use that
their sovereign may desire; bid them go through fire and water, and they will not disobey."

~Sun Tzu, The Art of War

	15-05-2002 23:06									#8
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Holy Cowage! That Sun Tzu was a bit ruthless, wasn't he?

	15-05-2002 23:20									#9
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Aye....that he was...

-=Vel=-

* Velociryx has some *groovy* ideas on implementing Og's Arts Academy.....will chew on them some more at lunch

	16-05-2002 00:43									#10
	Remove this text

Just back from lunch and here's another one....
*****

Fine Arts Academy
During the latter part of Candle’Bre’s 200 years of peace in the mountains, a few Fine Arts Academies began springing up in various provinces, and these proved to be an enormous boon for the kingdom as a whole. Not long after, Candle’Bre experienced a renaissance period in her music, and art, the likes of which has never been equaled.

Classification: Minor Wonder

Cost to Build: 750g (takes 8 turns)

Pre-Requisites: Must have at least three cities, and an overall happiness rating of 80%. Must not have been at war in the last 20 turns.

Effect: Each turn the Fine Arts Academy exists AND the building faction is not at war, there is a 4% (non-cumulative) chance of one of the following occurring:

* Flurry of exciting new research activity at the Academy, generates a free tech advance in the branch of your choosing (or 500 Research Points, whichever is greater)

* Select a target province you control and commission one of the Artisans from the Academy to construct, sculpt, or paint a monument there. Takes two turns to complete, and, once finished, increases the economic value of the province by 10g for the remainder of the game.

* Improved Construction Techniques reduce the price of all your provincial improvements by 10g

* Improved Construction Techniques increase each level of your fortifications by 20 HP (from 80 per level to 100 per level)

* Renaissance – Your Arts Academy sees such a flurry of advances that its impacts can be felt through the entire realm. Your Income and Influence both increase by 20% for the next ten turns.

Quote: “One must never underestimate Art as a motivational force. To do so is to overlook a valuable commodity that can be put to good use by a wise and capable ruler.”

~Tobias Kent, Minister of the Arts – House of Mourngrym

	16-05-2002 00:48									#11
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One of the points that has been driven home by the endless debates over CIV3 has been that part of the reason that it doesnt measure up is the compromise between good AI and complex game. Arent some of these ideas about multi tech trees and wonders (though I love em) gonna be effected by that problem?

Candle'Bre minimum system requirements
10GHz processor 2GB ram.

Note that if the game is good enough, I believe that people will acquire the machine to play it

	16-05-2002 00:54									#12
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could very well be, Spencer.....could very well be.

At this stage in the game, we just don't know what we're capable of, but I know that games that have come before us have had the elements we're talking about in the game, and I've got a couple of sneaky ideas about getting around the whole AI problem, so we'll see....

-=Vel=-

	16-05-2002 02:54									#13
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One thing I always wanted was to have a Wonder Workshop. Static wonders are boring. I'd be cool if you could build wonders to preform to your requirements.

Unlike Civ, Candy's not being bogged down by boring real history.

	16-05-2002 05:55									#14
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I have to second Moomin's motion! (I hope it's ok that I abreviate your handle like that ) I too would love to see a more dynamic approach to wonders. Matter of fact what I would really like to see is a more dynamic approach to buildings in general.

Let me explain what I have in mind. We provide the game with a set of "building functions". Those would be all functions that buildings use. For instance building troops is one function, providing trade benefits (gold income per turn) would be another function. The user would have a building workshop to decide what each of their buildings does by adding in functions to a building. The more functions a building has the more use you get out of it. Constructing a building with two functions would be cheaper than building two buildings that perform two independent functions. This could be used to create one uber-building that does everything, but the downside is if you lose that one building through combat, sabotage or fate then the province it's in loses all benefits it got from that one building.

Now the neat thing about this is that the building workshop can be used to create wonders too. Essentially wonders are just buildings but compared to all other buildings in the game at that moment in time they stand out. So lets say the first person to create a building with the "war captain training" AND "general training" function has a wonder in their territories. So they get a benefit from that. Nothing prevents other players from building the exact same building but since it came in second it's not considered a wonder, just a replica.

Functions can have requirements (tech requirements, building requirements, peace/war, social requirements -it would be nice to plug it in with the social model- etc).

Finding what combos make a wonder could actually became a little game on its own too, like rune words in diablo 2. But I can see that becoming somewhat frustrating so it might be better to have a clear list of what combos will get you wonders.

Well, that's one idea that I've always thought would be cool to have in a game. Do you guys like it, or does it not appeal to you much?

Last edited by xRamsesx on 16-05-2002 at 06:01

	16-05-2002 13:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That thinking guided me when I was designing the tech trees, too! In my head, the game would end before you fully researched all three branches, so it would lend to the feel that each game is (or certainly can be) a very different experience.

Hmmmm? On that note, how about some form of Moo tech tree? ie: Tech availability isn't necessarily pre-defined and each faction has a more randomised selection to choose from.
OTOH play-balancing under these conditions might be ... troublesome.

quote: Originally posted by xRamsesx Finding what combos make a wonder could actually became a little game on its own too, like rune words in diablo 2.

That will be solved in the same way it was solved in D2. Hacking the source code.


I absolutely love the idea about a "building workshop".
The implications for the AI are a bit worrisome though. Probably about the same as the effect of a unit workshop ... x5 given that these could amount to, in effect, the semi-permanent foundations of a faction.

	16-05-2002 13:52									#16
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quote: About the Tech Trees: I love the idea that it should be impossible to reach the top of every tech tree. However, wouldn't the system work even more towards creating a individual gaming experience if the Tech Trees weren't the same for every game? This sounds to me like it would be a ***** to balance ... but ... if each step of the Tech Trees had 2 or 3 possible advances that could fill the space then the player would have to consider slightly different strategies for every game. If the bonus to Cavalry attack and defense isn't available in MilTech slot 2 (or whatever) this game then the player would have to rethink their tactic of early-game Cav rushing since the tech that replaced it in MilTech slot 2, say bonuses to the defensive abilities of Infantry, would make that strat unviable. Some players would hate this because it would ruin whatever current uber-strategy they had devised, or simply because it seems to work towards making things more awkward for the player, but I'd really like to see this implemented becuase it would add variety to a genre that I think is often guilty of predictablity. Balancing it properly would require some Big Huge Playtesting , but I'm up for that. *snip*

I like the sound of all this! Wonders that depend on game ratings, Tech trees that force you to make choices rather than just ploughing all the way through them every game .... Sweet!

FP's tech tree scheme sounded much like the MOO2 tech scheme, which worked very well IMO. A real incentive for tech trading - you get stuff that otherwise would be flat out impossible! Also opens up the possibility of a Great University (original name Rich - well done ), that would give you a certain chance of acquiring say two slots of a tech level rather than one. In MOO2 terminology your faction would be partially creative.

Thoughts - if not a multi-slot tech tree, would a separate tech tree for each faction work? Again you could acquire completely unknown techs via trade (or espionage for that matter)

Also, how about spontaneous Small Wonder generation. I can't remember exactly who said it on this forum but someone posted something to the effect of 'Candle'Bre will not let you build cities as such, but if a terrain is set up properly, this will encourage the citizens to set one up.' Which I love as a game idea. Extending that, I'm thinking that setting up say five provinces with barracks, amounts to 'setting up the terrain' for a more martially aware people and encourages the creation of the War College. Say a percentage chance each turn that one of your barracks is updated to the War College. Building barracks in more than five provinces could boost this percentage chance.

Rich

	16-05-2002 18:38									#17
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I'm glad you like my idea Rich.

I didn't realise a similar system existed in MOO2. I've never played it before, but I think I'll go and see if I can find myself a copy.
I should be doing coursework at the moment, but I think I'll just call it some 'Bresearch' (new lingo word? ) and take some time off.

I can see that the Everything-Workshops that are being proposed at the moment could greatly enhance gameplay. The eternal problems with them will be, of course, balancing and AI. If one or two models of Workshop design are overpowering then the Workshop itself will largely be useless, and if the AI can't use them properly then single-player games will be poor.

The balancing problem would largely be solved through exhaustive playtesting, but the AI issue is more problematic. We'll just have to see what happens. If an AI that utilises the Workshops properly can't be built then we could always make them MP-only. The problem would then arise of having to implement an entirely different system for SP of course.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 16-05-2002 at 18:47

	16-05-2002 19:42									#18
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I'm liking the whole workshop appraoch, it allows you to customize the game in-game and have lots of options.

I'ld also like to express my thoughts on randomness. You're planning to have a fate engine thats great. What bothered me greatly about the implementation of CIV3 tho' was the capricious nature of the randomness inthat game.

Initial seeding made the game a kinna predestined thing.
Seeding of strat resouce same deal.
The whole combat resolution model was too random (IMO).

OTOH, look at a classic game like Diplomacy. (no randomness at all 'cept for the randomness/capricous nature of your opponents & "Allies??"). Pure strategy.

Its not that I'm against elements of randomness in the game, its just hopefully those elements are not game deciders (as was the case in CIV3).

So although BigRich's idea of spontaneous wonder generation is kinna cool, I would say no to random chances of a facility upgrading to a wonder. I'ld prefer that the decision is made and that resources are expended in order to make the wonder. Just my preference tho'. Perhaps it is a option to toggle kinna like random events in SMAC.

OTOH in order to evenout the random wonder generation if the toggle was enabled there likely would be a need to have the wonder randomly downgrade to the fac as well (symmetry and all).

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 16-05-2002 at 19:48

	18-05-2002 18:11									#19
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Yes...one of the things I hope we're able to do with this game is make it monsterously moddable....techs, buildings, units, wonders...pretty much everything you could do in the context of the game, I'd like to see it moddable if at all possible. The mileage you could get out of such a game would be just incredible.

I'm really liking a lot of the ideas I'm seeing here, too....this is good stuff! The notion that the "first" of a particular wonder to be built is considered a "Wonder" while any built later are just copies - expensive buildings that do provide some benefit, but don't have the status that a Wonder has.

To that end then, we need to come up with a list of possible benefits that are exclusive to Wonders (to differentiate them from the carbon copies built by other groups).

Making the whole thing into a workshop is a fantastic idea, IMO, but if we do that, then in order to keep the AI able to compete, I'm thinking that, as soon as a human player builds a new design, then we very quietly slip that new design into the AI's possible build list too.

We could make a "rule of thumb" that a "regular" building can combine no more than three different attributes...anything beyond that would be considered a wonder....or something. That'd keep people from *totally* circumventing the limited number of builds per province, and it's kinna along the same lines of, in the SMAC unit workshop, limiting units to two special abilities.

Hmmm....now you've got me pondering something....

What about an alternate approach? Rather than just having an in-game building workshop (tho having a building workshop in the editor is a must!), have it set up such that, with tech, you can modify existing buildings....

Example:
Barracks (Build at game start) - Allows training of troops (Conscripts)

Barracks Improvement - (at tech level X) - Parade Ground - Can crank out Regulars instead of Conscripts, but adds two turns to unit training time

Barracks Improvement - (at tech level X) - Field Hospital - Damaged units resting in provinces containing a field hospital recover all their hp's in a single turn (acts as a temple with regards to healing troops).

* Note that this is not a progression of builds....that is to say, you don't have to build the Parade Ground before you can build the Field Hospital. So, you could have a plain ol' barracks, or a barracks with a hospital on it, or a barracks with a parade ground on it, or all of the above. And, we could add in more stuff, too. A commissary build to barracks that would act like a Market, a Paymaster's vault that would act as a bank, etc.

-=Vel=-

	18-05-2002 19:33									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Making the whole thing into a workshop is a fantastic idea, IMO, but if we do that, then in order to keep the AI able to compete, I'm thinking that, as soon as a human player builds a new design, then we very quietly slip that new design into the AI's possible build list too.

I've often wished you could have the AI access various blueprints. Handle with care, though - it'd be all to easy to "clog" the AI with rediculously expensive builds if the blueprint stealing is to straight-forward.

quote: What about an alternate approach? Rather than just having an in-game building workshop (tho having a building workshop in the editor is a must!), have it set up such that, with tech, you can modify existing buildings....

Cool, but even more difficult to handle, I think. Still, better than a static build queue for sure.

	19-05-2002 18:49									#21
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My thoughts on the subject is this: get rid of all the Great Wonders while leave all the minor wonders in. Fix them. Forget about a "Wonder Worshop."

The idea of minor wonders is to have some alternative way of doing things, such as training War Captains, not having another feature that can be exploited by a veteran human player.

Therefore, the minor wonders must be balanced against other methods of doing the same things (if there are other methods).

Therefore, one must figure out roughly how much does it needed to get a War Captain in the field, and balance that against training in a War College. In essence, a nation is buying time with money, so these two must be carefully balanced.

Of course, if there are no other ways to do things, such as training scientists, then it doesn't matter.

	19-05-2002 18:50									#22
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By the same token, I don't think Generals can be trained in a War College. There are certain things in life that can only be acquired through experience.

The idea of that is to balance various ways of playing. If Generals can be trained in War Colleges, it seems to give too much advantage to the Builder sort of players. All they do is to make sure they don't get killed by putting in static defenses, then proceed to build up economy/production until they have enough money to buy anything.

	20-05-2002 01:36									#23
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UR makes a good point. And even if we don't ultimately wind up with a wonder or building workshop in-game, having one in the editor that'll eventually be part of the package is, in my mind, almost an essential, as this will allow people to Mod-in pretty much anything they want.

Eventually, we'll sit down and come up with about a gazillion different effects and attributes, all of which can be assigned to buildings....give it a point structure of something, such that when a building crosses a certain point threshold, it becomes a wonder of some description....something like that anyway...

-=Vel=-

	20-05-2002 02:03									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx UR makes a good point. And even if we don't ultimately wind up with a wonder or building workshop in-game, having one in the editor that'll eventually be part of the package is, in my mind, almost an essential, as this will allow people to Mod-in pretty much anything they want.

You know, Vel, if you went for a random map generator, then workshops could be automagically used to make randomized magic, buildings, tech and whatnot along with new land to explore, for each and every single game...

	20-05-2002 02:09									#25
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Hmmm....that's an interesting idea, Trooper! Might create some maps/games that are a little wierd/quirky, but if we went that far, then it wouldn't be much to build in controls to the RMG such that certain elements were always present (I could just see, for example, a randomized map/tech/building thing, which contained no barracks...LOL). But, with the right control set in place, yeah, that could really work!

Also, was thinking about certain built in options....for example, you could play the Historical game (default starting positions and such).

The Dominant Church Game (cheaper intercessions, and no attacks for X turns, by Church decree)

The Ineffectual Church Game (very expensive intercessions)

The Research Game (everybody starts with X (or random) number of research points to allocate on turn zero).

And a few other built in variants that would tweak/change the overall experience.

-=Vel=-

	20-05-2002 10:30									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And even if we don't ultimately wind up with a wonder or building workshop in-game, having one in the editor that'll eventually be part of the package is, in my mind, almost an essential, as this will allow people to Mod-in pretty much anything they want.

On behalf of the yet-to-be-established Candle'Bre modding community I thank you.

On that note, is it possible (AI-wise more than anything else) to use flags for as many of the game attributes as possible rather than hard-coding in the various statistics? The worst thing about Civ2 is trying to deal with all of the little details with units/techs/improvements that can't be worked around.

	20-05-2002 12:21									#27
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All the game AI's I have seen are a sort of expert systems, even though they aren't that much of an expert. They just have the AI programmer(s) to play a whole bunch of games and hard code what they do and how they make decisions in the "AI" routines. That's probably the fastest but dumbest way to go about it.

Certainly there are various ways to evaluate any given situation, the open-ended way of 4X games makes this difficult. That's one of the reasons I advise putting in too many features that can be modified. You're just going to break the AI engine at some point.

	20-05-2002 16:58									#28
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Yes, unfortunalely every hard coded stat is a direct boon to the poor guys who are trying to implement the AI. That said, if you take Vels idea about having the human player and the AI play essentially two different games - or playing from two different rule books, anyway - you can actually get away with a lot of flexibility.

The inteface between the rulesets, however, won't be easy.

	20-05-2002 18:25									#29
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To some extent, I've become an opponent of the great wonders. IMO they've been totally screwed up in CIV3. At the lower levels where you dont need them, you can get em all. At the higher levels they counter the AI advantages (which is how they were envisioned in civ) but the AI tends to get them 1-2 turns before me so I dont always bother.

	20-05-2002 20:01									#30
	Got spare money?

More thoughts on the AI.

I'm thinking that there shouldn't be a great deal of difficulty interfacing the AI's simple rule set and the human player's deeper, richer one. We could just build an "AI flag" onto most every moddable attribute, and when the program encounters an AI flag, it knows to use the dumbed down rule.

-=Vel=-