16-05-2002 08:38									#1
	Some questions on GoVt/Pacts that i would like answered, pls. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Some of this has been covered but not specific to my situation..with that said...

I have just finished bashing the japanese, but the chines e declared war on me because i finished the evolution wonder before them (i know this because if i don't finish the wonder..they do not declare war). So i get japan and france to declare war on china.


Anyway, after years of fighting i want peace before my citizens revolt. But if i get peace with china, japan immediately attacks me WITHOUT declaring war.

Why are they able to do this..and why can't i declare peace without penalty?

Now, if i continue the war with china...a few turns later my democracy is overthrown and i descend into anarchy. My question is why do i get NO SIGN that this is about to happen?

(I have the governor manage the citizen moods for me)

the only clue i think i have..is the growing number of food shortages because more entertainers are enlisted to combat

"war weariness"

now if i pump up the happiness slider..my civilization still falls into anarchy.

..seems like a catch 22 to me.


on another tact..

its a bit distressing to see a unit defend itself such that a leader is created only to die as more units attack. Seems a bit wasteful.
leader should be able to run away in that kind of situation --same goes for when it happens to the enemy (when i am attacking and ai gets a leader that will only die)

oh and the last big mysterious puzzle i have is...

why can the enemy AI capture my workers and instantly transport them into 1 of their cities so i can't recover them.

Why can enemy AI capture workers 2x with same calvery or capture a worker and attack another unit when i am only allowed to capture\attack once...


and why can..enemy units sometimes attack in my territory and then warp out. (I watched it move in to my territory and then just disappear --2x now)

?

TIA


edit: oh and i forget a very big problem that seems to afflict the workers on auto pilot.

WHY do workers need to go into cities and sleep for a bit !??
At any given time, 1/3 of my workers are doing nothing while they wait/sleep. i don't know in the actual city squares.

Its not because of the wars, since the workers (that are working)
don't mind going right up to an enemy border and working --which is why i lose more than a few.

Last edited by Redstar on 16-05-2002 at 08:52

	16-05-2002 09:53									#2
	Re: Some questions on GoVt/Pacts that i would like answered, pls. Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Redstar I have just finished bashing the japanese, but the chines e declared war on me because i finished the evolution wonder before them (i know this because if i don't finish the wonder..they do not declare war). So i get japan and france to declare war on china. Anyway, after years of fighting i want peace before my citizens revolt. But if i get peace with china, japan immediately attacks me WITHOUT declaring war.

I'm assuming that you entered an alliance with Japan to attack China, and that alliance has not yet expired. So by declaring peace with China, you might inadvertantly be dishonoring your alliance. Hence Japan attacking you.

quote: why can the enemy AI capture my workers and instantly transport them into 1 of their cities so i can't recover them.

They don't "transport" them, they feel that they cannot prevent you from recapturing your workers, so instead they disband them. Mean, but what anyone would do to their enemy.

Hope that helps.

	16-05-2002 17:01									#3
	Re: Some questions on GoVt/Pacts that i would like answered, pls. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Redstar Anyway, after years of fighting i want peace before my citizens revolt. But if i get peace with china, japan immediately attacks me WITHOUT declaring war.

If you've been fighting more than 20 years, you can go into the diplomacy screen, click on "Active", and remove your Alliance vs. the Chinese from your trades with Japan and France. Then get the Peace Treaty with China and they won't have a negative reaction.

quote: its a bit distressing to see a unit defend itself such that a leader is created only to die as more units attack. Seems a bit wasteful.

Ha! This happened to me twice in one turn in my second game (way back in December). To add to the insult, they were my first two great leaders that I had generated while playing Civ3. All I could do was watch them die.

quote: why can the enemy AI capture my workers and instantly transport them into 1 of their cities so i can't recover them. snip and why can..enemy units sometimes attack in my territory and then warp out. (I watched it move in to my territory and then just disappear --2x now)

Same answer for both - the AI disbands the units. If they get into an untennable position, they disband to save the expense rather than giving you an easy victory.

quote: edit: oh and i forget a very big problem that seems to afflict the workers on auto pilot. WHY do workers need to go into cities and sleep for a bit !??

Is there any work to be done? Or have they upgraded all the terrain around the city? How are you setting them to auto - Shift-A, Ctrl-Shift-I, etc.?

	16-05-2002 23:43									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am using shift-A to automate the workers and there is plenty of work still to be done. I don't understand this...its always happened of course...its just started to bother me is all since i do automate workers more than i used to.

Thanks for the responses. I shall check out how long i have had the pacts.


NOw, how do i tell how close my people are to throwing off my democracy?

	17-05-2002 00:10									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Redstar NOw, how do i tell how close my people are to throwing off my democracy?

I wish I could tell you . In a game on Regent, late in modern era, manually controlling governors (i.e., no "Manage Moods") --

1. Democracy.
2. Built Universal Suffrage. Many luxuries. Hiked happiness spending.
3. Initiate war (as aggressor).
4. End of 3rd turn of war, not one single instance of civil disorder.
5. Next turn - "Our people are overthrowing our Democracy! Our civilization is descending into anarchy!"

* sigh *

	17-05-2002 00:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Catt 3. Initiate war (as aggressor).

The effect is definitely worse when you initiate the war. Try using espionage on the target civ until they declare war next time. Then your population deals with the ensuing conflict longer. However, I know of no way to tell how close they are to revolting. Do any of the advisors clue you in? Not sure. I usually avoid war weariness by keeping a full stable of luxuries (all seven whenever/however possible - it's worth the exhorbitant prices the AI charges in trade) and building the "happy" improvements as a priority.

Not sure about your automated worker issue Redstar. I use Ctrl-Shift-I and they only stop working when the city is fully improved. Then I move them to another city and repeat.

	17-05-2002 00:55									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Yeah, I knew that WW would be greater as the aggressor, but I was still surprised that my civ revolted so quickly into a war with all my other efforts to combat WW (i.e., my point # 2). Was even more surprised that the revolt was not preceded by rampant civil disorder or at least greater unhappiness -- and since I had built nuclear plants in almost all of my main cities, I was manually checking on unhappiness levels every turn out of fear of a meltdown.

BTW, haven't had this "surprise revolt" happen to me again -- always seems to be preceeded by ever increasing levels of unhappiness.

As to the espionage gambit, while I don't have hard facts to share or conclusively prove this, I did experiment (through reloading and using alternate tactics) with repeated espionage to force a declaration of war so as not to be the aggressor . . . and the other civs became furious with me! This was in a different game from some time ago, and I don't have a save game, but declaring war as the aggressor limited my opponent to the target civ and preserved my reputation with other civs (or at least didn't change their attitude towards me), while repeated espionage ultimately caused the target civ to declare war AND caused the other civs to change their attitude towards me quite considerably -- I believe in one test, one of the other civs even declared war on me at the same time as the target civ (without a triggered MPP or an alliance with the target civ!).

IIRC, the manual does indicate that even successful espionage missions can become "public" knowledge among the AI civs, and harms your reputation. Don't know if the likelihood of WW is affected or not by the espionage gambit and forcing a declartion of war, but even if it is (i.e., the gambit significantly delays WW because you're not technically the aggressor), you will pay a reputational cost.

Catt

	17-05-2002 01:13									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

ok i have been following the actions of my workers for 8 turns now (year is 1800)..

I am told i have 56 workers. 30 of them are asleep in cities --20 of them in 1 city...which changes every few turns. If i count the workers working there are 40 --so captured workers must not count towards the total workers. Workers work alone or in pairs.
However, they definately stack large to clear pollution and in one case 3 workers were actually making a mine together.

If i click on a worker in a city it says it has moved this turn...and the number has varied from 17-22 (in one city). I guess they move too fast for me to see.

But ya..over 8 turns for sure...there have been a significant number of workers not working when they could be.

WHY do they sleep when there is work to be done.


***

As to the anarchy, i made peace with the chinese to avoid it and first striked the japanese (so i rewrote history there .
(Turns out i had only 2 turns to go in my pact --thanks for pointing that out to me!).

I avoided anarchy --even though i was effectively still at war.tho with a different opponent.

edit: i have 6 of the 8 luxuries (i average 5 of each kind)...and i did put my happiness slider up to 50% --but that did not stop the anarchy.

I was given no messages or saw any sign if disorder until my gov't collapsed.

Last edited by Redstar on 17-05-2002 at 01:35

	17-05-2002 17:08									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Catt I did experiment (through reloading and using alternate tactics) with repeated espionage to force a declaration of war so as not to be the aggressor . . . and the other civs became furious with me!

Oops. Guess I'll have to be more careful with this. Usually I have a group of Civs that really like me, and I keep hand feeding them techs and such to keep them happy. Maybe my generous diplomacy kept them from erupting when I espionage-prodded the other civ into war. Think I'll play around with this over the weekend.

Hey Redstar - what patch are you using? You do have 1.21f right?? I have no idea why your workers are so lazy.

	17-05-2002 22:55									#10
	Support Apolyton

yes i am using 1.21f. But i also noticed this in the other patches and pre patch.


also..as someone else mentioned....

when i run out of a resource...the same resource is laid right back down again (but with no message).

this is first time i noticed...but its also the first time i have run out of 4 resources in 11 turns.


HELLO EVERYONE!

	17-05-2002 23:05									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Redstar when i run out of a resource...the same resource is laid right back down again (but with no message).

Ha! That was me in the 1.21f bugs thread. Really annoying. I actually like running out of resources and being forced to find new sources. Since 1.21f, I have not had any problems securing resources, and then they never go away. The only things that seem to be really localized (and thus need to be traded for) are luxuries.

	18-05-2002 06:48									#12
	Re: Some questions on GoVt/Pacts that i would like answered, pls. Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Redstar Now, if i continue the war with china...a few turns later my democracy is overthrown and i descend into anarchy. My question is why do i get NO SIGN that this is about to happen? (I have the governor manage the citizen moods for me)

You just answered your own question. Don't just rely on your Governor, but check up your cities from time to time. If you see that a large portion of your citizens are Entertainers, you know you're going to be running into trouble soon.

Take a look at history. Those leaders that ignore their people and let their underlings take care of things tend to get ousted. The ones who take a personal interest in their subjects usually stick around for a long time. Think of it as a bit of realism in a computer game, and be thankful it's just a change of government and not of leaders.

	18-05-2002 09:00									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

i guess i could start doing that and then see how long it takes to go into anarchy so i have a better idea next time..just seems like a lot of work.

only reason you are a leader is so you can avoid doing all the work )

	18-05-2002 09:12									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Redstar i guess i could start doing that and then see how long it takes to go into anarchy so i have a better idea next time..just seems like a lot of work. only reason you are a leader is so you can avoid doing all the work )

But even leaders need to keep tabs on their underlings from time to time. At least popping into a city occasionally is less work than managing everything yourself. And don't be shy about raising your luxury spending if you know war weariness is kicking in, it will buy some more time until Anarchy kicks in. And get lots of Luxury resources. Having all 8 makes a huge difference, if you can manage it somehow.

	18-05-2002 09:31									#15
	Put an end to popups!

well i had 6..i also pushed luxury up to 50% at last minute so i guess there is a threshold where there is nothing more you can do ..but make peace.

i also have this thing against luxury spending.
one of the reasons i like civ3 more than civ2 is because i can get away with NO luxury spending at all (well, not counting war weariness needs)

	18-05-2002 09:44									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Redstar well i had 6..i also pushed luxury up to 50% at last minute so i guess there is a threshold where there is nothing more you can do ..but make peace. i also have this thing against luxury spending. one of the reasons i like civ3 more than civ2 is because i can get away with NO luxury spending at all (well, not counting war weariness needs)

Yes, there is a point where nothing you do will make a difference, it's either make peace or switch governments. You might try Republic, there's not a big difference between that and Democracy in terms of income, research etc., and there's much less war weariness. Communism and Monarchy have none, though there's some production penalties for both.

Myself, I have no problem with Luxury spending, I typically set it at 20%, whether I need to or not. I find having a number of cities celebrating WLTK day to be worth the expense, and I have to rely on my Governor much less. It's only when War Weariness starts to get bad that I turn him on. And at that point I usually try to make peace ASAP. Waging a long war in Democracy just isn't feasible. Eventually you'll go into Anarchy.