17-05-2002 19:48									#1
	3/7 just declared war, what do I do now? Support Apolyton

Opps, I was counting on having a MPP option but it is not showing as an diplomacy option. Rome declared war, no problem. Split Roman forces by landing a small unit in south {2 horse, 1 sword, 1 musket}. Planted city on hill, added barracks, port, cannon. Only 2 tiles from another Rm city, but still no problem. Held first 3 Roman attacks, then Russia decides to declare war. Obviously city can't hold against stack of 10 russians. Bye, bye diversion city.

Same turn, China decides to affirm alliance with Russia, so I have 3 civs at war with me.

Looking for advice on what to do, but especially troubled that there is no MPP option with Persia. I do have an embassy, but no MPP option. Only alliance vs Egypt. {duh, read notes, no MPP til Nationalism, dummy}

Geographical layout:

One large continent, kinda clover shaped, 6 civs. 2 continent islands with 2 isolated civs. Germany on NW clover, Persia on NE clover, Rm SW clover, Russia SE clover. Egypt primarily S of Germany but couple scattered cities between Persia and Russia. China in middle between Egypt-Russia-Persia.

Last Score yr 1400:
Germany 575
Iriquois 379
Russia 321
Egypt 316
China 287
Persia 277
rome 259
zulu 226

Military strength:
It was weak vs China and Russia, but last turn they both lost units when attacked city.
Currently: Avg vs Russia, strong vs others.

Units: {germany}
25 warriors [police, no upgrade option]
6 swords [no upgrade option]
2 pike [upgradeable, saving cash]
15 musket
1 knight [upgradeable when get to barracks]
7 calvary
13 cannon
1 frigate
2 privateers
5 galleons
1 leader

Empire layout:
All in clover except for 2 isolated cities by Persia who culture flipped.

Military position:
culture flip city NNE-1 cannon, 2 defenders
culture flip city NE-{rome attacked with 2 legionarries, so moved in reinforcements}
2 cannon, 1 cav, 1 knight, 1 musket, 1 sword

Southern border facing Egypt, 3 City line, 5 tiles apart.
West city-port city, barren tiles adjacent to Egypt, no improvements--1 cannon, 1 sword, 2 warriors, 2 galleons {rome 3-4 turns away}
Central city-on hill, walled, pop 6, 4 cannon, 4 sword, 3 musket, 2 cav, 2 warriors
East city-pop 7, 4 cannon, 3 sword, 2 cav, 1 warrior, 2 musket.
2 tiles back of line between central and East city, reserve--2 cav

Big fear is Egypt & Persia will turn and declare war also.

Big problem is I have no right of passage thru Egypt to get to other civs. Once military is stronger I can attack, but right now my military is in a defensive posture. Cannons have saved me, so far, but one 2 turns into 3 civ war.

Should I get a MPP with Persia to harrass China and Russia?

I could sue for peace with Rome and give them a city by Persia but don't know if that would gain me anything.

Techs:
1 turn from end of middle ages.

Govts:
almost all republic, one is monarcy but I don't remember which.

Would you recommend using leader for A) universal suffrage, or B) Theory of Evol?

Normal IA tech line:
nationalism {MPP}
steam
elec
repl parts {inf, rubber[alas not in my area]}
indust {Univ Suf}
med
sci method {Theory of Evol}

Question summary:
Long post for me, here are primary questions--

1. What would you do in my position?

2. Do I seek a MPP with Persia in a couple turns?

3. Do I seek right of passage with Egypt and open borders and risk surprise Egyptian internal attack?

4. What do I do with leader: Univ Suff, ToE, army, hold in reserve?

5. Do I try to sue for peace with one civ, or just wait and see?

	17-05-2002 20:16									#2
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1 - 3. I would get as many of the neutral civs on your side as you can, but DO NOT give them MPP or ROP. Just get alliances and let them walk over your land if they need to in order to get at the target civs.

4. Is that your first leader? I always build an army with the first, then build Heroic Epic; that way you should get more leaders going forward. Subsequent leaders can be used for rushing wonders.

5. Once the other civs are involved, I would wait for a favorable outcome before dictating terms of peace.

	17-05-2002 20:37									#3
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Heroic epic, missed that one. Good idea.

How do I get alliances? This is not something I have done before. With war going on, what type of alliance do I offer?

Alliance with Persia vs Egypt? Am I stuck with alliances forever? If not, how stop alliance?

How get ability to walk over Egypt? Alliance vs Persia? Is it worth it to offer a city for the alliance?

It seems like I am always learning more and more about this game. Does it ever end?

	17-05-2002 20:43									#4
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You need to have established an embassy with the Civ you want to ally with (which requires writing; then double click on the little star symbol next to your capital city's name). Then go into the diplomacy screen and Military Alliances will be an option. I usually am willing to trade resources, luxuries, or techs for alliances, but I never trade cities. Alliances last for 20 turns from inception.

There is a finite amout to learn about the game. If you haven't played a Civ game before I can imagine it would somewhat daunting.

	17-05-2002 20:54									#5
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Established embassy, so alliances now show as an option. Can you make an alliance vs a civ that declared war on you? If so, what does it mean, other civ will start fighting also?

Other than permanent loss that takes military to recover, what is the disadvantage of giving away one of the culture flipped cities?

Aside, been playing since Dec, but just adding spies and diplomacy to game style. Big learning curve as I trying to move from playing vs 3-4 civs to playing against 7 civs.

	17-05-2002 21:05									#6
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Is it worth it to offer a city for the alliance?

I do not think so, cities are too precious.
I did it three time in a previous game to gain peace treaty. It was a poor size one city which I got from the Zulus due to culture flip. As it was in the middle of my empire and the other civs quite far, it was not a problem to take it back by culture flip; except the last time where it takes almost an age.

	17-05-2002 21:23									#7
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Planetfall,

Sign some alliances. They last 20 turns, after which you can cancel out and make peace. You're in a three-front war now, and this has all the makings of a giant pile-on. Get some friends in on it.

If you get a leader, it all depends on what is available wonder-wise. The Heroic Epic is a possibility, and the cost-benifit there depends on how much you really intend to fight.

You need more Knights.

-Arrian

	17-05-2002 21:38									#8
	Support Apolyton

Actually 2 front war now:
culture flip city
egypt border

Still definitely need friends. iroquis and zulu are too isolated unless give them communications. Guess that may not hurt for future value. Thus left with Egypt or Persia.

Leaning toward using leader for U.Suff since I really need this great wonder.

Cant buy new knights, they were replaced by cav. Thus build allocation:

2/3rd military
1/4 cannon
2/4 cav
1/4 sword|musket

1/3rd infrastructure so I can get to replaceable parts

	17-05-2002 22:06									#9
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Wow, I started playing vs. 15 right from the start. The more the merry, I figure. But I had played Civ and Civ2 going back to 1992.

Anyway, I would use the leader sooner rather than later. You can only have one at a time, so if you're in a war and holding one, you're losing the opportunity to generate additional leaders.

If you're having a hard time of it, don't ask "Egypt or Persia", just go for both if you can afford it. If you don't get both allied with you, chances are one of your enemies will.

	17-05-2002 23:52									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

You have warriors as your police? I hope you feel your cities are completely safe...but it doesn't sound that way. Warriors are upgradeable to swords, but if I were you I would put at least one musket in each city.

Being a scientific civ, you will get Nationalism as soon as you change ages. I would definitely use the GL for an army and then get the Heroic Epic. With a militaristic civ and the HE you will be spitting out leaders left, right and centre once you get Panzers.

Get an alliance with both Egypt and Persia or else the enemy will.

	18-05-2002 00:18									#11
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Civ3 doesn't have a police unit. I use warriors and swords as police so when I view the city barracking units I know how many can be moved for military action vs police action. The warriors and swords are used to keep pop happy and keep down corruption, usually 1 police/5-10 pop. Edited preferences so warriors upgrade to none. Definitely add military to city police on frontier, so all frontier cities get either musket or infantry {when available} and artillery type pieces.
Usually after sci method, I back up and pick up communism for police stations. Now what would be a cool enhancement, would be the ability to be able to upgrade warrior/sword to full dress mountie graphic.


Agreed once get Panzers it is end game, that's why picked germany instead of america. Sometimes I delay tech climbing one tech from panzers to delay end game and have a larger city base for the GA to build on. I get too bored of micro managing and trying to milk scores after end game.

	20-05-2002 21:59									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Alliances are strange. They were simple at first. Now no one wants to have an alliance except the smallest civ. Everyone else is furious. This is with only attempting an invasion of Rome after 2nd time of declaring war on me. My score is only about 100 pts above the second and third civs and we are all three growing at the same rate. I am not increasing lead and they are not falling behind.

Changed my mind, I want to finish this game so I have a base line so when I go back to retry the ancient era I have a finished game. Then if I can improve the ancient era I can measure the effect of ancient era activity at the end of the game.

Again thanks for advice. Now I am 3 turns from rubber and waiting to see where it is located. Do I have it or have to war for it?

	23-05-2002 20:49									#13
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Still working on base game with unsuccesfull ancient era. Lastest changes:
1. now 4 civs are warring with me--Rm, Egypt, Russia and Persia.
2. Was able to get Iroquis to declare war with Russia and Rome vs Persia.
3. Still have leader, guess will use for army. Researched TOE and U.Suffrage.
4. At one point had 5 10+ stacks of Russian, Egyptian, and Roman troops within 1 tile of border city.
5. Now no foreign troops within borders.
6. Opening second front for enemy allliance by beating up on Persia.
7. Egypt is taking advantage of second front to open up on 10+ stack of Russian infantry just leaving my border city.
8. All is rosy, just started building my first panzer. {Surprise I had one rubber near Egypt border.}

9. Still rosy, Rome just loss their first army at the same border city. Be nice to know war results: pieces loss vs pieces killed.



Thank you all for advice, it was the extra alliances that broke the back of the gang up pile.