18-05-2002 02:01									#1
	Incans: Space-Filler or not? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In my opinion, the Incans are one of the most overrated civilizations in history. Let's look at the facts:

1. Lasted only 200 years. Thus, anyone who argues that the Americans should not be in Civ 3 and the Incans should is an idiot.

2. Annihilated by the Spanish without even killing one Spaniard. How pathetic is that?

3. What did they invent? Is there anything they did before anyone else in the world?

So, no significant military achievements, no major scientific accomplishments, and no worthy artistic endeavors. They didn't even have a writing system in place (not even a borrowed one) and this is in the 16th century!

I'm not saying the Incans should not be included in Civ 3. In fact, I think they will most definitely be in the expansion pack.

However, they will serve mostly as a space-filler than anything else. If you judge them just by merits, there are far more deserving civilizations out there.

Just thought it was time to call a spade a spade.

	18-05-2002 03:12									#2
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A response (following your line of arguments):

1. The Incan Empire of the 15th/16th century was one of the biggest empires in world history by then. As a second argument: The Incans in Civ3 Extra Pack also represent all former cultures in the Andean region, which range a long way back.

2. The conquest was really kind of pathetic, although one has to add that the Spanyards had the advantage to encounter an empire in state of civil war that was not prepared to an encounter with a people like Europeans.

3. They've constructed a well organized, huge empire in an area which is very difficult to control, their communication system was perfect and unique. The Incan walls, so perfectly constructed are still a wonder to me.

About your alphabet argument: Take yourself an hour and contemplate about how stupid this argument is and why...
Sorry, if the "stupid" offends you, I'm talking about the argument, not you.

	18-05-2002 13:04									#3
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Incans have Aztecs beat hands-down, tech-wise.

	18-05-2002 13:05									#4
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Even more so the Iroquois. Close to Zulus. (Incans heavier on abstract sciences, Zulus better in terms of know-how).

	19-05-2002 14:44									#5
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Plus, Inca had a lot of gold. They bought themselves a civ lot in the game.

	20-05-2002 21:57									#6
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Not convinced at all.

1. Size is a factor, but a critical one. The Mongols conquered the largest contiguous land mass in history but their civilization is not highly considered.

2. If the Spanish invasion was so pathetic then the Incans were even more pathetic for getting annihilated by such a feeble attack.

3. I still don't see anything world-class or even worthy.

Anyhow, I didn't say anything about an "alphabet", so your statement is stupid not mine. Are you Incan? Do you still not have a writing system in place?

If you "take an hour and contemplate" about what I wrote and READ you'll see that I was talking about a "writing system", not an alphabet.

If a civilization doesn't even have a writing system in place by the 16th century then it is primitive.

The Incans were primitive.

Last edited by siredgar on 20-05-2002 at 22:12

	20-05-2002 22:50									#7
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Well, they built large-scale constructions and were advanced astronomers (quite a view up there!). They unified the entire Andes, had a population of many millions - no less urbanized than europe at that time. Their political unification was short, but the andean peoples had been advanced for centuries before then.

Incan textiles are the best known to man. Even some of the cloth made before the conquest is still today superior to our best. They were masters of that craft.

They got their butts kicked by the spaniards, no doubt. As Wernazuma points out, the spaniards showed up at the perfect moment - a civil war to decide succession to the throne was underway, there had been a big disease outbreak just before then. People were disorganized in a big way, and were then attacked by people with far superior arms. Why should this matter? For example, the Romans got run over by people with inferior weapons and tactics, completely crushed in just a few years. That is, there are many factors at play!

As for a writing system, you doubt the value of the oral tradition. It's effective, provided only that you have people designated to keep histories, which the Inca did. They also had a simple record keeping system using knotted threads. Not quite writing as we know it, but functional symbology, nonetheless.

Are they space filler? Maybe, but I'd argue they are a "better" choice to include than either the Iroquois, Aztecs, the Mongols, or Zulu.

	20-05-2002 23:13									#8
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sidregar...

Edit the Inca out of your game when the XP comes and quit whining.

I'm sure you'll think of some civ that contributed vastly to the world as we know it to put in their place. Post it here when you do. I'll download it and play as them as well.

The Inca were killed by small pox and themselves, not the Spaniards. Just as the Aztecs were.

	21-05-2002 01:03									#9
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar 2. If the Spanish invasion was so pathetic then the Incans were even more pathetic for getting annihilated by such a feeble attack. 3. I still don't see anything world-class or even worthy. Anyhow, I didn't say anything about an "alphabet", so your statement is stupid not mine. Are you Incan? Do you still not have a writing system in place? If you "take an hour and contemplate" about what I wrote and READ you'll see that I was talking about a "writing system", not an alphabet. If a civilization doesn't even have a writing system in place by the 16th century then it is primitive.

Huhu, someone getting mad? YOU should learn to read. If you read my response to #2 you'd see, that I kind of agreed with the point you made.
Your ignoring to acknowledge what the Incans achieved seems to be very dogmatic. The only point you really focuss upon, and I guess the only point you get your whole conclusions from, is the lack of an alphabet (sorry, my fault: writing system ).

But it seems you really don't understand how history worked, "when you say: "by the 16th century".
For 10000s of years human development was constricted to minor improvements. Then, at some time, several peoples independently developped agriculture and more complex societies. Now, those in the "Old World" benefitted very much from each other by copying. The Andean region on the other hand was merely isolated. The Writing system spread in the Old World merely by diffusion, possibly with one or two exceptions. The Aztecs, who you seem to esteem higher, lacked a writing system too. Well, they had some standard drawing for their calendar, but no proper writing system. It is even more astounding that the Incans achieved their complex communication system DESPITE the lack of writing.

I wonder if it has some metaphysical background that leads you to the opinion that "the 16th century" is a time when a people of at least some culture has to have developped writing? Wouldn't it be more accurate to count the years from the beginning of civilization in that area? Like: Why didn't they invent writing within 3500 years of civilization? Then you could still make more or less the same point but it wouldn't sound so pathetic...

	21-05-2002 06:44									#10
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Siredgar:

I admire ur statements, opinions, and all, but i think picking Incas as a "Space filler" was not a wise thing to do.

1.

quote: They unified the entire Andes

I don't think so.... I've been in Bogota, Colombia (a city in Andes) but, the Incas went as far to the west-south tip of Colombia (and for a very short time).

2. Totally agree with Siredgar.

3.

quote: I still don't see anything world-class or even worthy.

Siredgar..... this is where ur main mistake is... Inca has some very impressive stuff that no other civ has.

quote: Incan textiles are the best known to man. Even some of the cloth made before the conquest is still today superior to our best. They were masters of that craft.

I've heard of this before, but i think this "SECRET method of making textile" is still a secret, so it did not impact anyone in the world.

quote: They also had a simple record keeping system using knotted threads.

While interesting, this record keeping system was not widely used, nor even effective for detailed history records..

quote: I wonder if it has some metaphysical background that leads you to the opinion that "the 16th century" is a time when a people of at least some culture has to have developped writing? Wouldn't it be more accurate to count the years from the beginning of civilization in that area? Like: Why didn't they invent writing within 3500 years of civilization? Then you could still make more or less the same point but it wouldn't sound so pathetic...

If u meant the Korean Alphabet, u must be joking: first of all it was 15th century, (but Koreans used Chinese writing system for more than 1500 years before this invention) and unlike the Europeans who adopted the Phonecian alphabet the Korean alphabet is a very original writing sys. that is probably the most "scietificaly perfect" for its language. I guess Koreans did invent the writing system a bit late, but at least Koreans did not borrow from someone else.

Anyway, back to the topic: while Siredgar has some valid points, i think Incas are truly unique civilization built over a bunch of (HUGE) mountains. They r not just space fillers.

	21-05-2002 21:40									#11
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Did I say anything about Koreans? I was not even thinking about a specific writing system I consider having been invented independently, I just wanted to let the possibility open because I have to admit that my knowledge is not big enough to trace all writing systems back to a certain time and spot...
And I did not mean that every writing system is a simple derivation of the original one, but I deeply believe that it is mostly correct that the idea of writing (and very often the systems themselves) spread by diffusion

	21-05-2002 22:06									#12
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thinkingamer, to clarify - I typed the entire Andes, but this really was basically from colombia to northern chile/argentina. The parts of the andes with significant populations. Their metaphysical world, like that of most all amerindians, had real world boundaries. The world continued beyond, but it was not of great interest. They went that far and stopped expanding, as they'd conquered all quechua peoples and then some.

As for textile "secrets" - I'm not sure techniques were so secret, but they raised animals to give superior wool and placed great value on quality cloth. Because it was valued, care was taken to make it well.

Such a record keeping system was secondary to the oral tradition, of course it was not widely used. It was a supplement to what is a sufficient system of keeping histories.

	21-05-2002 23:21									#13
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Wernazuma III, sorry about that. i guess its my english.... at least i said "IF".

Marquis de Sodaq, i had a friend from Peru that told me that the Incas had a secret of textile making pattern that is forgotten in history...... thats all that i know.

quote: but this really was basically from colombia to northern chile/argentina. The parts of the andes with significant populations.

Amazons is in south part of Colombia which were another part of very populated part of South America, and also there were many parts in Colombia outside of Amazon that had significant population (u know the legend of EL DORADO comes from one of the Colombian native Indians (andes Indians not Amazon)).

I think the EL MUSEO DE ORO in Bogota has the largest collection of artifact gold of SA, and it is mostly from Colombian native Indians.

	22-05-2002 01:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by thinkingamer Marquis de Sodaq, i had a friend from Peru that told me that the Incas had a secret of textile making pattern that is forgotten in history...... thats all that i know.

I can't claim to know much more than you! Your peruvian friend may well be right.

	22-05-2002 01:55									#15
	Re: Incans: Space-Filler or not? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by siredgar ... no worthy artistic endeavors.

Siredgar, go to Amazon.com, buy some Andean music, listen to it when you have time to spare, and then come back here and repeat again that thing about Incas having no worthy artistic endeavors.

	22-05-2002 02:05									#16
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oh, just remembered. Quinine anyone? They discovered it. Plus many other alcaloids with medicinal properties.

	23-05-2002 08:31									#17
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IIRC, aspirin is included on that list...

	23-05-2002 08:50									#18
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I am not saying that the Incans did not have a "worthy" (for lack of a better term) civilization. In fact, I believe it was quite an admirable one and as the leading civilization of South America it deserves a spot in the game. However, I also feel that it is one of the mostly highly overrated civilizations in that it only last 200 years, it was annihilated rather quickly and easily, and it did not have any unique inventions or contributions of significance. Sure, the people may had developed an interesting culture and an organized form of government and communication, but it was still relatively primitive in many ways for that time.

	23-05-2002 13:59									#19
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Siredgar, without the medicinal knowledge of the Incas, life in the Tropical areas would have been imposible. Quinine is used to treat malaria, something the Incas knew way before the Conquista. That's one you have to grant to them.

	23-05-2002 14:05									#20
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For establishing what could be called the first Socialist state on Earth on any large scale, and being so peaceful that locks were unheard of (NO crime or murders etc.), some would say the Incan civilization is the MOST qualified to deserve to be in a game named CIVILIZATION...

	23-05-2002 15:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt For establishing what could be called the first Socialist state on Earth on any large scale, and being so peaceful that locks were unheard of (NO crime or murders etc.)

You mean like the mythological Golden Age of the Titans?

	23-05-2002 21:06									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt For establishing what could be called the first Socialist state on Earth on any large scale, and being so peaceful that locks were unheard of (NO crime or murders etc.), some would say the Incan civilization is the MOST qualified to deserve to be in a game named CIVILIZATION...

And others would say, this peacefulness is myth

	09-06-2002 11:03									#23
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Considering the geographic isolation of South America and the forbidding landscape of the Andes, I'd say that the Andean civilizations are amazing achievements.

Therefore the Inca isn't a space filler.

	09-06-2002 15:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee oh, just remembered. Quinine anyone? They discovered it. Plus many other alcaloids with medicinal properties.

Quinine was not discovered during the Inca dynasty.
That happened many centuries before (same with penicilline and streptomycine), either in Tiahuanaco, or maybe even earlier.
Of course IMHO the Inca dynasty is part of the Tiahuanaco civilization. Then we have a civ worthy of inclusion.

	09-06-2002 21:55									#25
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Well then, shouldn't it be called the Tiahuanaco civilization, not the Inca civilization?

	10-06-2002 00:17									#26
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Indeed it should

	10-06-2002 01:26									#27
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-they were superior to other cultures in the region
-the incas are/will be the only south american civ in the game

	10-06-2002 01:37									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Indeed it should

Well then, at least the name is super easy to change with the editor.