18-05-2002 10:36									#1
	Constitution Committee: Discussion thread Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Our first issue is of the number of consecutive terms of office that can be held by one person.

The current rule is that no-one may be in the Politburo for more than four terms - after this they must have a break of one term before any re-election. This does not apply to the appointed VP position.

The proposal is that we restrict this to two consecutive re-elections to the same position as a maximum, and three consecutive re-elections to somewhere in the Council as a maximum. Where a person is VP or Historian, this (these) term(s) shall not count as a term in Council for the above limits.

This has been (informally) accepted by civman2000 and DarkCloud. I believe these ideas are also acceptable. If anyone else has some points to put forward, please do so.

I propose a three day discussion period, after which we shall poll on anything we have decided upon. The time of this post (according to me) is 17:35 on Saturday 18, thus I propose to poll after this time in three days. I would also ask members to post their ideas on how long the poll should last - three days also?

Let us make the working peoples of Apolytonia proud of their Committee!

VP,

MrWIA.

	18-05-2002 17:50									#2
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I don´t think that we should make a strict rule for re-elections,
my vote is that one can hold a positions as many terms as he wants

not a lot of people wants to run for the positions, we are having a lack of candidates

	18-05-2002 18:06									#3
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yes MWIA forgot to mention that this restriction is waived if no one else wants to run

	18-05-2002 21:41									#4
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The restriction is waived if no one wants to run.

And it wasn't merely accepted by us, it was proposed
---

I think the poll should only last 2 days.
3 days could be useful and allow all to vote, but It could cause dragging. 1 day would be too little, in the event that someone has to go away and do something.

Therfore 2 days seems adequate for polling.
-
Should there Possibly be only 2 days for discussion also?

----
Oh, finally, another proposition- perhaps we need an official way to kick out a president if the president is not doing his job correctly? Say, he neglects to play for 10 days straight or post polls, etc.

A formal impeachment procedure?

	19-05-2002 02:41									#5
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Have we had any of these problems yet? I say we deal with them as we encounter them, rather than creating an inflexible approach that may hamper more than help us.

	19-05-2002 07:25									#6
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Idea, we could create a commitee that will stay seperated from all elections and politics and create solutions to constutional issues. Kinda like the american supreme court, only they would propose new parts to a constution. These solutions would then be put before the citizenry for a vote.

	19-05-2002 08:58									#7
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I agree with cannonfodder...his proposal is the true spirit of the AAAC!

	19-05-2002 11:19									#8
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Well Comrades, first I must hasten to correct myself - DarkCloud and civman2000 DID propose the above ideas, and not merely "accept" them, as I put it. But we must remember to sacrifice some of our individual accomplishments in the name of our great State. To not do so is capitalist, competitive and divisive.

I think this issue needs to be dealt with now, as it is one that faces us in elections, only a short week and a half away (! I must get on to that...). The Presidential impeachment issue is certainly NOT IMO a top priority at the mo', and this may be an issue that we deal with when and if it arises.

Comrade Matticus - I like your idea, that the Committee sits on these thorny issues (ouch) when they arise. And yes, Shaka, we have a lack of candidates, but with the restriction waiver we can always get past Ministers in for terms where this is a serious problem. I think we should have some restriction on the number of consecutive times a poster can be in the Council, so that if there are ppl who want a go they get a shot at it and we don't just have the same ppl in the Council the whole way through. If there are no candidates for a position, we can always get the VP to do it - that is one of his jobs after all. If there are no candidates for multiple positions, then I think we should deal with that as we come to it.

And I also think we need a restriction on the number of consecutive times a poster can hold the same position, so that the group who DO volunteer for office can see more aspects of the game than just the one responsibility.

And this is not against the tenets of the, uh oh - ( Communist = no political parties = AAAC has gone underground ). Ahem, um, this is not against the tenets of the illegal AAAC either, as it isn't a constitution, but a fairness regulation for elections - which only benefits all Comrades!

The above statement does not imply that I am a member of the AAAC, or any political party besides the ruling one for that matter.

What a silly idea that would be!

*MdS' secret police leave MrWIA alone*

	19-05-2002 16:37									#9
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the main reason of limiting a political post is to decrease corruption, since corruption is going to be a bit hard to do

i like the idea of the supreme court, to cover all the problems right now is going to be very difficult, we should face them when they show up

if the president or any cabinet member disappears for a while we should make a poll to ask the people what they want to do

	19-05-2002 18:38									#10
	Got spare money?

yes the supreme court should be appointed to 2-month terms by the prez...however, if they want to be in the council they have to resign so someone new gets appointed...the supreme court should have 5 people IMO, not too many but enough to have some varying opinions.

	19-05-2002 18:41									#11
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oh, and there should be an overally limit of 2 terms on the court and consecutive terms should not be allowed.

	19-05-2002 18:53									#12
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it seems like everyone in the AAAC (it's, erm, an association of communist friends not a party ) supports this idea. It is now the official position of the AAAC. No constitution other than maybe stricter/more specific term limits, and the the supreme court figure out otehr stuff when it comes up.

	19-05-2002 19:18									#13
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Apparently I have become a de facto member of this so-called AAAC. However, I assure you I am a member of no other party than the Communist Party of Apolytonia!
I simply feel a strict constitution would benefit the bourgeois rather than the workers.

	19-05-2002 22:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by CannonFodder Have we had any of these problems yet? I say we deal with them as we encounter them, rather than creating an inflexible approach that may hamper more than help us.

Didn't we already have one president who resigned?

quote: Idea, we could create a commitee that will stay seperated from all elections and politics and create solutions to constutional issues. Kinda like the american supreme court, only they would propose new parts to a constution. These solutions would then be put before the citizenry for a vote

Isn't that what this Constitution Committe doing?
---

Oh, and a note: if you wan't to ask me any questions, I have an official Faces of Apolyton Interview coming up here:

http://64.246.32.51/~admin1/forums/...&threadid=50544

	20-05-2002 11:59									#15
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OK, just to summarize, I stil intend to poll in just under two days time with several options. These will be

Poll 1:

How many consecutive times can one poster be elected to the Council?

1. 2
2. 3
3. 4 (what it is at the moment)
4. Banana option

Note: If there is no other candidate for a position, a poster may stay in the Council beyond this limit.

And Poll 2:

How many consecutive times can one poster hold the same position?

1. 1
2. 2
3. For as long as they are allowed in the Council (see other poll)
4. Banana option

Same note as above.

So far I haven't seen any opposition to these ideas - if you have a doubt or want to add something, let me know ASAP so we can satisfy the wants of the Peoples' Committee.


VP
MrWIA

	20-05-2002 17:54									#16
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(and now a word from outside the committee)

I hate the idea of a Supreme Court!!!!! : There's just no need!

--We just don't have the infrastructure (ie, enough ppl) to support this -- as witnessed by the struggles to get a full slate of candidates to run for High Council.
--This is the Democracy Game, not the Mimic The US Government Game. No Supreme Court!!

What is this, we turn Commie and immediately get into Big Brother Mode ??????????

	21-05-2002 07:02									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh well, the Constitution committe is as good a Supreme Court for our needs at the present. I support Jrabbit.

And- aren't we really overusing banana. It has sort of lost its jokish flavor- especially when it isn't funny such as in the OT "What fruit is your favorite" poll types?

	21-05-2002 07:42									#18
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add the supreme court idea to the polls. Outline the basic idea and give the following choices:
1. Yes
2. No
3. Maybe, but it needs some refinement
4. If they are required by law to eat 5 bananas a day.

	21-05-2002 12:20									#19
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If the "Supreme Court" gets some more vocal support from those who post in this thread, I'll include it in polls. As it is Shaka and civman alone are pro the Court - and as I see it we kind of ARE the "Supreme Court", just not with the power to be the last resort in case of disagreements.

I think we should leave such decisions up to the voters - there's no need to make anyone a final authority (besides the Prez's limited authority) - I think all we need is a few of us to decide whether or not we NEED a firm decision on an issue. Let's not over-legislate ourselves here, I think the system of polling for a decision works well enough that we don't need anything else.

And civman - a Supreme Court sounds dangerously close to being an actual Constitutional authority (anti-AAAC), whereas this Committee is "Constitutional" in name only. We have no authority - all we are is a group who are experienced (or not) enough here to see what problems we are having/will have, and put up polls so everyone can decide what will be done.

I wasn't intending anything more drastic than that, and if anyone disagrees, we may need to go to the Council/voters to decide whether we get any power or not.

At the mo' I STILL intend only to put up the two polls I mentioned in my last post. If there's anyone worried enough about this, post here or PM me your concerns and I will include your suggestions or delay the poll(s).

Attentive to your concerns,

VP MrWIA.

	21-05-2002 20:59									#20
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Now that you point that out, I have changed my mind. There should be no official constitution or standing committee but rough rules can be worked out by poll if there are major disagreements and it is a very important issue (such as term limits).

	22-05-2002 07:56									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

The 'Supreme Court' doesn't have to go by that name. The basic tenant of it is the fact that they aren't elected and they stay away from any pickering that might go on. Weater the constution commitee acts as this arbitrary body or not doesn't matter.

	22-05-2002 08:04									#22
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Shouldn't we post that first poll by now- i believe it has been 3 days. I'd start it, but I believe it is MrWhereItsAt's responsiblity.

	22-05-2002 11:47									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Don't worry, DC. Have just got home. My Honours year project is due in 6 days so it's a busy time. Let me watch DBZ and then I'll post them.

Glad to see that there are those who want to keep me in my place!

The concern is appreciated.

	22-05-2002 20:09									#24
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Wow, your still watching DBZ. I hope it's the subs...

	22-05-2002 23:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Shouldn't we post that first poll by now- i believe it has been 3 days. I'd start it, but I believe it is MrWhereItsAt's responsiblity.

It *is* the job of the VP to post the election polls, but it is too early to do that. The elections should be timed to be completed a couple of days before the end of the current term, and I fully intend to conduct a game session Friday May 31.

So, the 3 day election poll should be posted on May 26th or 27th to close on the 29th or 30th. I know everyone gets anxious to get the elections started, but let's not have them too early. Sunday or Monday will work just fine.

	23-05-2002 07:05									#26
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quote: Glad to see that there are those who want to keep me in my place!

Well... If you didn't do your job, there would be no telling of the infringments on the constitution- it would become anarchy

	30-05-2002 16:33									#27
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I think that only 4 terms one after the other should be allowed!

	31-05-2002 04:37									#28
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Here's my proposed constitution. It has it's own thread, but many said it should go here.

Democracy Game Constitution

"We the people of the United Apolytonia in order to form a more perfect Civ2 game, establish lots of polls, ensure domestic controversy, provide for the common amusement, promote the general post count, and secure the illusion of importance to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United Apolyton."



Article 1: The Presidency

Section 1: The President

The President is the Chief Executive. In any situation the President may ask to be incuded in the decision-making process, and is the sole authority in most final decisions. Except where specifically noted, the President has veto power, but is encouraged not to use it. The President is responsible for playing the actual game and holding turn chats while doing so.

Section 2: The Vice President

The Vice President is responsible for exercising the powers of the President when the President is for whatever reason incapable of doing so.


Article 2: The Cabinet

Section 1: Department Heads

The Secretary of War is responsible for presenting the President and citizens with a detailed report on the state of the military. The Secretary of War should be present at all discussions regarding the construction, deployment, or use of military units, the placement of cities and forts, or wonder construction.

The Foreign Minister is responsible for presenting the President and citizens with a detailed report on relations with other nations and our espionage capabilities regarding them. The Foreign Minister should be present at all discussions regarding the construction, deployment, or use of all Diplomats/Spies, or wonder construction.

The Secretary of the Interior is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on all internal and external trade routes, the location and status of all settlers, the production queue of each city, the status of each city (Is it in WLT*D, normal, or revolt?), tax allocation, gold/turn, available food caravans, wonder opportunities, and a list of the supply/demand in every city, including foreign cities. The Secretary of the Interior should be present at all discussions regarding internal or external trade, settler allocation, city production, city creation, or wonder construction.

The Science Advisor is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on all possible research paths, noting the military, wonder, and other benefits in choosing each path. The Science Advisor should be present at all discussions regarding research choices or wonder construction.

The Expansion Minister is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on potential new city sites, our capability to get settlers there, and our exploration capacity. The Expansion Minister should be present at all discussions regarding exploration, city creation, or wonder construction.

Section 2: Deputy Deparment Heads

Deputy Department Heads are not required postitions. They are appointed by the Department Heads. There can be one deputy deparment head for each department. The Deputy Department Head carries out all of the functions of the Department Head when the Department Head is for any reason incapable of doing so.

Section 3: Sub-Department Heads

Sub-Department Heads are not required postitions. They are appointed by the Department Heads.

For the War Department:

The Sub-Secretary of the Army is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our ground forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Army until both Horseback Riding and Bronze Working are discovered.

The Sub-Secretary of the Navy is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our naval forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Navy until Map Making is discovered.

The Sub-Secretary of the Air Force is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our air forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Air Force until Flight is discovered.

For the Foreign Ministry:

The Sub-Minister of Diplomacy is responsible for providing the Foreign Minister with all information pertinent to our diplomats and the information we know about other nations through embassies. There may not be a Sub-Minister of Diplomats until Writing is discovered.

The Sub-Minister of Espionage is responsible for providing the Foreign Minister with all information pertinent to our spies. There may not be a Sub-Minister of Espionage until Espionage is discovered.

For the Department of the Interior:

The Sub-Secretary of Trade is responsible for providing the Secretary of the Interior with all information pertinent to foreign and domestic trade, including a list of all trade routes and a list of the supply and demand in all cities, foreign and domestic. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of Trade until Trade is discovered.


Article 3: States and Governors

Section 1: States

States are regional administrative areas which may contain no more than 5 cities. Each state has a governor who is the Chief Executive of that state. Each state can formulate local policy in relation to defense, trade, city improvement construction, and settler allocation.

Section 2: Governors

Governors are the Chief Exucutives of states. The governor is responsible for presenting the President and the citizens with a detailed report on all information pertinent to his or her state. The governor has the sole right to make decisions regarding martial law. The governor should be present at all discussions regarding city improvement construction, unit production, military unit deployment, settler allocation, and wonder construction in his or her state.

Article 4: Elections

Elections for President and Deparment Heads will be held every 30 days, and the polls will be open for two days. To be in the running for a post, you must be nominated and seconded. Nomination time will be in the three days preceeding the opening of the polls. The nomination time occurs during the term of the previous administration, but the game is not played while the polls are open. A person may be a candidate for only one office at a time. Elections are won by simple plurality. If there is a tie, those not tied will be out of the running and there will be another two-day voting period. This will continue until there is a winner. If the election comes to a two-person tie or goes on too long will be ended by rock-paper-scissors or something.

Article 5: Tasks that require special authorization

Section 1: Declaring War

To declare war on another country there must be a poll in which at least 20 people vote and at least 60% of the votes are for war.

Section 2: Negotiating Peace

To negotiate peace there must be a poll in which at least fifteen people vote and at least 60% of the votes are for attempting to negotiate peace. Decisions on specific deals during negotiations will be made during the turn chat.

Section 3: Wonder Construction

To begin construction of a wonder there must be a poll in which at least ten people vote and the wonder with a simple plurality will win. There must be a second poll regarding at which city the wonder should be constructed, but this poll is a normal poll.

Section 4: Nuclear Weapons

To use nuclear weapons, for the first time there must be a poll in which at least 25 people vote and at least 75% of the votes are for using nukes. Each subsequent use only requires 15 voters and at least 60% of the votes. If we are nuked first then the first authorization is bypassed and authorization is the same as subsequent nukes. If the decision must be made during the turn chat, authorization will be given by rules determined during the chat.

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 31-05-2002 at 04:44

	31-05-2002 08:43									#29
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Personal view: Way too complicated. Under-Secretaries of Army, Navy, etc? It will not work.

	31-05-2002 15:12									#30
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I disagree!

Those seem like brilliant ideas, but only if those people are appointed, rather than elected. Electing about 20 other people is just going to get too confusing, but if they are appointed to help the ministers (by the ministers), it would work quite well.. I say we implement that ASAP, considering we need more people to work on invasion plans for America and Egypt.

Deputies would have to be appointed as well.. although maybe the runner up in an election becomes the Deputy? That is a very good idea, as it gives people a chance to become involved in Apolyton politics without going through the process of becoming elected. That should be implemented as well.

One thing though.. a 60% majority for most things? Thats ridiculous, IMHO
If most of the voters vote "yes", then the motion is passed. That simple. If there are 20 votes, and 8 are for "yes", 7 are for "no" and 5 are for "don't know", the "yes" option wins. If there is a yes-no draw, another poll is taken without the "don't know" option.

Governors.. hmm. Seems a bit like localalised City Planning. I don't think that will work, personally.
Although.. it would be good for ceremonial titles. The Duke of Apolyton, or something. Would add some more role playing into the game..

One entire article you missed: Political Parties! What are the rules? Powers? Responsibilities? etc..