20-05-2002 19:35									#31
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In a united Europe with the UK included it will definitely not be a part of that North Western province

Adminstration-wise, being governed from the Iberian peninsula would be more sensible. But as long as nationality is an issue...

	20-05-2002 19:45									#32
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UK "North Western province"

	20-05-2002 20:06									#33
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Maybe that Dutch guy could create the flags.

	20-05-2002 20:10									#34
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hi ,

since its allready a bananareplublic , ..........;with high taxes and numerous scandal's in its local government , .......put it out , ....
hence , sell it , ........;

then of course , its a base , a small militery one , but, the only in its kind in the near region , ........hmmm, keep it , to stop narcotics and to fight slave trade , .......

have a nice day

	20-05-2002 20:29									#35
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My vote is purely out of self-interest. I'd much rather have the British controlling this stategically placed fortress than the Spanish.

	20-05-2002 20:55									#36
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I'm for referendum
let them decide for themselves

	20-05-2002 21:03									#37
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I don't see how there is any argument. The people of Gibraltar want to remain British, so why should we deny them that? (And this isn't because they want to remain British: if they wanted to become Spanish, I would be glad to support them in that). This just seems like a bit of sabre-rattling from the Spanish if you ask me.

	20-05-2002 21:07									#38
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The Spanish have been pressuring Gibraltar for years. Blair at least ought to tell them to back off if they want negotiations to take place.

	20-05-2002 21:21									#39
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Any solution would go for me if Gibraltar stops being a pirate´s cave.
Do you know that there are more fake-limited business than people in Gibraltar?.
Do you know what´s the main "industry" in gribraltarian, let´s say, economy?.
Do you know that gribaltarians oposition to spanish control is mainly for "economic" or "taxation" reasons?.
Do you know what contraband means?.

The answers to all this questions are related each other.

	20-05-2002 21:27									#40
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What would everybody thought if Americans have take possesion of Cherbourg, Calais and Dunkirk in WW2 and then they negate to give back to France?

	20-05-2002 21:52									#41
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some points about the question:

The Treaty of Utrech said that land comuncations are forbidden.

Too, that any change in the politcal status of the colony suppose its return to Spain...

UN has some resolutions where recognice Spanish rigths to its territorial integrity (refered to Gibraltar).

Too, we can say that airport is in Spanish territory and breaks Spanish aerial space.

The lifestyle in Gibraltar is thanks to its economic status as fiscal paradise...if somebody believe that this is aceptable...

And we arent speaking about the extended practise of contraband, that harms next territories and Spanish Financial Ministery.

	20-05-2002 22:14									#42
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Egads!

There can be only one sensible conclusion - referendum!

Allow the people to decide for themselves, and not make the repeated mistakes of many other transitions of government without the will of the populace - many of which have been quoted on this very thread!

Interesting place though, even if the apes get a bit frisky!

	20-05-2002 22:34									#43
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[ironic mode on]
"¡¡¡ Let's them vote !!!. I don't mind, I will manipulate the ellection."
[ironic mode off]

It is simple, people's opinion is not important, if something has to be, it will be. Interests rule this hypocrit society.

If Alfonsus is right, the Spanish government has only to offer Gibralatarians some good economic privileges, and that's all. They will kiss our flag with "frenesí".

It doesn't seem to be right but, ... Welcome to real world.

	20-05-2002 22:37									#44
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Come on folks, be serious. Who believes that the Spanish will agree to a referendum vote? Can anyone else say "El pais Vasqo"?

	20-05-2002 22:41									#45
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Yes, a referedum with 2 options!!! :

1. total integration in Spain
2. integration in Spain in a new autonomy: they can create your laws, they can have your goverment...

	20-05-2002 22:42									#46
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Referendum, but the people want Britain anyway...

IMO, Blair is being an idiot over this one. Do we need to secede Gibraltar to form closer relationships?

	20-05-2002 22:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH No, the land that Hong Kong was built on was leased. Gibralter isnt.

Not quite.

After the First Opium War (in 1841 IIRC) Hong Kong Island was ceded to the British. After the Second Opium War the Kowloon Penisula was ceded to the British. Only the part known as the New Territories was leased for 99 years.

When the lease was about to expire in the late 1980's the British Government went to China for an extension (teehee). Thatcher almost tripped over outside The People's Hall, and the rest was history.

	21-05-2002 09:42									#48
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You know the amazing thing about Gibraltar is that most of the people wish the colony to remain British even though most of the people are not ethnically British. True, a lot are British but there are also a lot of Spaniards and Genoese. What does that tell you when a large group of Spaniards living in a British territory don't want to become part of Spain?

Besides, maybe Spain should consider giving up Ceuta on the Morrocan coast and its other North African territories before it goes about trying to acquire Gibraltar.

	21-05-2002 10:13									#49
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Just give Gibraltar back to Spain, you hijos de Gran Bretaña.

	21-05-2002 10:13									#50
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Referendum! The alternative is to hold the next Survivor episode there and let the jury decide.

	21-05-2002 10:31									#51
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Package a deal with Guam. Pal's get Gibralter, Israel gets Guam.

Too close together. Might be problems.

	21-05-2002 13:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David James What does that tell you when a large group of Spaniards living in a British territory don't want to become part of Spain?

Will citizens from Isle of Man or Isle of Jersey vote for becoming part of the regular british fiscal system???
Wake up, boys! It´s all a matter of taxation.

	21-05-2002 13:17									#53
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I hope this answer hasn't been said.

But the obvious solutions to the mid east peace crisis is to move all the Israelis out of Israel and put them in Gibralter.

	21-05-2002 13:32									#54
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It's like Puerto Rico. There're probably more benefits for Gibraltar as a British colony than as a part of Spain or even as a full part of Britain.

	21-05-2002 13:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President It's like Puerto Rico. There're probably more benefits for Gibraltar as a British colony than as a part of Spain or even as a full part of Britain.

That´s the point, llanitos (gibraltar inhabitants) want independence to become a full "fiscal paradise", and that´s what we, spanish, should avoid, cause that would be bad for all the towns sourronding Gibraltar (as will boost up ilegal activities, mobs and contraband).
The rock has no other value than as a base for ilegal activities, so I don´t care if it´s british or spanish, I just want that activities to cease (or at least not to increase). Probably the best solution could be (sorry if this sounds a little hard) that the rock sunks.

	21-05-2002 13:49									#56
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Definitely a referendum, but with the British option including a clause stating that Gibraltar's tax status will be brought in line with mainland UK...

Then at least we would have an interesting referendum...I mean, who in their right mind would opt to turn over their tax haven and be brought into a normal tax regime?

A referendum without that would be distinctly biased.

	21-05-2002 14:08									#57
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but the status of the rock isn't possible maintain... if the benefits of territory depends of a illegal activities or competition tax rates... changes the political status is a priority for Spain.

UK also wants change this because the rock is a "patata caliente" (colloquial spanish expression for "a trouble")

	21-05-2002 14:10									#58
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what if we have a war where Europe battles Africa. I think the territory should be in competant hands. i.e the U.S.A

	21-05-2002 15:02									#59
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The people don't want to be Spanish, we have NO OBLIGATION AT ALL to give it back, it really is as simple as that.

	21-05-2002 16:24									#60
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"The people don't want to be Spanish, we have NO OBLIGATION AT ALL to give it back, it really is as simple as that."

But the point is, do they not want to be Spanish because of the tax perks they currently seem to have?