20-05-2002 21:49									#1
	Does The Ai Cheat?!?! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, does it?

I can hold my own on Monarchy and expand just as fast as the computer (usually faster). However, when I crank it up to diety I resign after a few turns only to find that the computer has created three or four settlers in an EXTREAMLY short period of time.
Does the AI have some unfair advantage over the player on diety? Or am I overlooking some vital expansion strategy?
I could understand if one civ expands a little faster, or in one game an AI civ races way ahead due to luck...but I'm seeing that EVERY game, EVERY civ expands REALLY fast. How are they doing it?

	20-05-2002 22:37									#2
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Units costs are reduced for the AI as you move up difficulty levels. That, at base, is what makes it more difficult (along with some other things, too). They can expand more quickly, build more, etc etc.

	20-05-2002 23:04									#3
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I know the ai cheats because it always seems to know well in advance strategic resources are. That's why they go settling happy and found cities in what seem like obscure places.

	20-05-2002 23:26									#4
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From CivFanatics Info Center for Civ3 (I'm at work now):
At Deity level, you get only 1 content citizen while the AI (who is playing at Regent level, happiness wise), gets 2 content citizens. The AI needs only 60% of the standard number of shields to produce something.

FREE Units: The AIs receive FREE units as soon as they build their first city on Monarch, Emperor, and Deity levels. 
* On Monarch level, the AI usually gets a free Warrior unit.
* On Emperor level, the AI usually gets 2 or 3 free units. In Sman's experiment, the AI got 2 warriors and 1 archer.
* On Deity level, the AI usually gets 4 or 5 free units, such as 2 archers, 1 spearman, and 1 worker.
* The free units the AI gets appear to be random ancient units.

---
It's not "cheating", it's the level you are playing. If you want to play "even", play Regent level. Of course, the AI will always be playing by somewhat different rules than you or I (e.g., knowing the location of each and every unit). But hey, the poor bloke can't think.

JB

	21-05-2002 00:07									#5
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Lol, just have a look at the Editor!

Here's what the AI starts with at Deity:

8 best available Defenders (might be Hoplite for Greece!)
4 best available Attackers (might be War Chariot for Egypt!)

2 Settlers
3 Workers

They can have 16 Units without paying any support cost.
They can have 4 Additional Units per City without paying any support cost.

Anarchy is limited to 2 Turns.
Their Cost Factor is 6. (10 for Human Player)

They agree to a trade with an AI even if they have to give them something with 1.6 times the value of what they get.

	21-05-2002 01:38									#6
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Nah, Egypt lacks The Wheel from beginning and can't start with WC's, but the Azetcs surely start with Jags and militaristic civs with Archers. As far as I can see the other facts are correct.

The AI gets big bonuses (note that's not a cheat but an advantage) on Deity and smaller bonuses on Emperor and Monarch. Regent is the "fair" level. On Warlord and Chieftain it gets a handicap, i.e. it needs more shields to build a unit than the human player needs.

Who calls these advantage cheats, can with the same logic call anyone who wins at Chieftain and Warlord a cheater.

	21-05-2002 01:53									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Who calls these advantage cheats, can with the same logic call anyone who wins at Chieftain and Warlord a cheater.

Bingo. Well said.

-Arrian

	21-05-2002 04:44									#8
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The AI constantly cheats in many ways, and there have been scores of threads detailing the ways it does it.

It teleports ocean-going galleys around the globe. It gives freebie settlers to the nearest military unit if another civ (the human) razes a city. It is omniscient - all seeing, and really doesn't need to trade maps. It gangs up on the human. It gets factory-level production without having to build factories. Lots of stuff. All bad.

	21-05-2002 05:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle The AI constantly cheats in many ways, and there have been scores of threads detailing the ways it does it. It teleports ocean-going galleys around the globe. It gives freebie settlers to the nearest military unit if another civ (the human) razes a city. It is omniscient - all seeing, and really doesn't need to trade maps. It gangs up on the human. It gets factory-level production without having to build factories. Lots of stuff. All bad.

And yet, any decent Civ player can STILL win the game.

You complain on one page that the AI cheats. Then you complain on another that they are dumb.

What level do you play at Coracle?

	21-05-2002 12:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski You complain on one page that the AI cheats. Then you complain on another that they are dumb. What level do you play at Coracle?

With increasing difficulty levels, the AI should be playing with better tactics, not lots of hidden advantages (suchas knowing the locations of troops/resources).

	21-05-2002 12:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle The AI constantly cheats in many ways, and there have been scores of threads detailing the ways it does it. It teleports ocean-going galleys around the globe. It gives freebie settlers to the nearest military unit if another civ (the human) razes a city. It is omniscient - all seeing, and really doesn't need to trade maps. It gangs up on the human. It gets factory-level production without having to build factories. Lots of stuff. All bad.

Is that why you keep whining about not having a cheat mode, to level the playing field? Are you like the A I and can't think and adapt? Surely your brain alone can defeat the AI without resorting to cheating.

gangs up on the humans? I've seen lots of ai wars. the key is to trick (pay) the ai to fight each other before they pay to fight you. production increase? duh, its in the editor, on each level above regeant, aI gets about 10% discount per. big whoop. can't hang, don't play that level. freebie settlers? whoop-de-damn-do. They need all the help they can get. Omnisciient-I don't care, I'm ominiscient myself, uselful sometimes, but othertimes, do I really want to know? definately not, some people are just sick.


The AI doesn't cheat (too much). it is just playing by different rules than the human on upper levels. Just like you play with different ruiles on chieftain, slanted toward the human.

	21-05-2002 13:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle It teleports ocean-going galleys around the globe. It gives freebie settlers to the nearest military unit if another civ (the human) razes a city.

Bull twaddle.

	21-05-2002 18:12									#13
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Well I feel much better now
I was thinking that there was some serious flaw in my strategies since I couldn't produce cities as fast as the AI. If the AI gets special advantages at Monarchy and up that's fine as long as gamers are aware of it. Trying to match the AI's expansion is VERY frustrating when you don't realize they are getting a bonus to increase difficulty.

I think the information about the difficulty levels and the corrisponding AI bonuses should be listed somewhere...like in the readme or manual. That way players understand the higher levels are for a real *against the odds* challange and are not just based on high AI efficency and good tactics.

	21-05-2002 18:37									#14
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You can see and tweak this in the editor, although this would make the difficulty levels pointless.

You still can beat the AI's expansion without war, on any level up to emperor, because the AI builds a lot of military units, and builds settlers ineffective, meaning it doesn't coordinate and optimize shield and food production. THAT are the really stupid things the AI does, and not Coracle's infamous wandering settlers (which are normal). If you optimize settler production with units in the gaps, you still can build a decent army while concentrating on settlers. That's important at emperor, because the probability of sneak attacks is higher than on lower levels. Don't build any improvements and wonders (even granaries only if the food production is bad). Let the corrupt 1-shield cities produce settlers, once they have at least 2 grassland tiles available. 30 such cities make a settler each turn.

	21-05-2002 18:46									#15
	Sir Ralph, I beg to differ... Increase Your PM Length

I tried a few dozen games starts on Emperor and found that the AI had one huge advantage that no one seems to have mentioned yet: starting location.

I have seen the AI pump out 4 settlers for each one I can manage and the difference is their capital's location and resources. Try and compete with a city that has 4 food tiles (grain, cattle or game) when the best you have is a grassland tile on a river.

Other than that, I can hold my own against the world at any level. But only 1 game in 100 has me in a good starting location.

Last edited by Gen.Dragolen on 21-05-2002 at 19:59

	21-05-2002 19:02									#16
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I can't see a starting location penalty for the human, and I have seen AI capitals in hill and jungle areas, with just a few grassy tiles and no bonus resources.

Sure the starting location does matter. I had several starts with only desert and coast around. Time for a laugh and a ctrl-shift-q. But you have no need to be very picky. All you need for a start position are 2 shielded grassland tiles. Don't compare the expansion speed too quick, in till 2000..1500BC the AI sure has a lead, but that's the point, where your geometric progression starts to work. The AI meanwhile builds useful stuff like Temples, Pyramids and Oracles in it's productive cities. Let it. You don't need this stuff (yet). Build settlers, and keep your cities size 1-3. About 1000BC you break even, and 10AD you're the biggest fish, given you succeeded to keep peace. At this time, the territory quality should have been middled out.

	21-05-2002 20:23									#17
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Sir Ralph,

The problem was that once the AI dicovers where you are and you have one city in place, you can't produce another settler fast enough to block the gap.

Not that having the gap blocked stops the AI from sending troops though your lands. Especially since I was trying to build settlers and only had a few spearmen and warriors. The last game, the Romans settlers showed up with Legionaries at around 2000 BC (from their 2 cities) and my Egyptians were still trying to build a settlers ( from my two cities). The Romans send 4 settlers and Legionaries past my blocking city before I could finish one settler in 20 turns (my cities were growing at 10 turns/pop and that was all I could manage with the locations available).

When I managed to trade for a map using an auto-save just to see what I was up against, the Romans had 4 bonus food tiles and 1 luxury tile each at their first two sites. Guess it's time to take off the "Culturally Linked Starting Locations" option...

D.

	21-05-2002 20:41									#18
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Gen.Dragolen: So you mind that the AI sneaks cities in? Let it. These cities are easy prey later, either cultural or (most likely) military. Sometimes I even intentionally leave gaps to invite the AI, especially to crappy places where a city would not be able to build more settlers. In the BC's I try to expand peaceful, in the early AD's I consolidate my empire, and when's Knight time..., well, that's another story.

	24-05-2002 04:10									#19
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Sir Ralph,

Well, it was a little un-nerving to see so many settlers so close together that early in the game and all of them headed in my direction. The Romans put out 4 cities in a hurry and had another settler on the way into my heartland. Starting with a city in a veritible desert was not conducive to my ReXing plans in that game.

The only grace was that with the Egyptian Culture, I would have had most of them by 1 AD. Assuming the Romans didn't try to wipe me out first... Those Legionaires can be annoyingly tough to kill. Usually costs me an archer and sometimes a swordsman to finish one. And cities need to be well bombarded to even bother.

Like I said, the difference was the starting locations. I see more games where the Computer Civ's (CC) gets a sweet starting location and it just follows that they can out produce you... at first.


D.