21-05-2002 02:47									#1
	How strong should your Navy be? Got spare money?

I almost always avoid building Navies. I just don't need a Navy.

Exception #1) I build 2 galleys if I need to try and find other civs off the main continent. (This is my entire Navy for most games)

Exception #2) If I need to invade I'll build a quick Navy from scratch. (a few transports and cover ships).

I think that corruption has killed the Navy. Islands are so corrupt they are useless, so why bother taken them unless enemies are making their bombing runs from them. Also, they AI cannot launch a credible overseas attack. I let them land and kill them all without much effort. The AI is very good at sinking my ships, so I find that it is much easier to build land units instead and let them land.

	21-05-2002 03:40									#2
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Your survey question is too broad without fuller explanation.

What is your world? panagea? continents? islands?

I always play with continents. I find a navy important. Yes you can play without much of a navy but it is more fun to work to coordinate land-sea-air strike.

Only 2 galleys? That means you have to lose the resource claiming race to the AI's because they will find remote islands and continents before you do. Thus you will have to conquer instead of just planting a city and claiming resource. I have found the game often pulls oil or other key resources somewhere other than the continent where you start.

For the most part, until the modern era all you need to have the strongest navy is:
4-6 caravels
2-4 privateers

In modern era, you can upgrade to
2-4 transports
2 carriers
4 BS
4 Destroyers

Then you can launch multifront campaigns with
air softening resistance. The AI is good about anticipating a direct land attack, but
does not anticipate a two prong attack from
the front land position and a side assult from the sea. You don't need marines, just land on a hill.

Often the placement of the AI capital is way too close to the sea. Good strategic bombing will remove all strategic resources from the capital by clearing the 8 tiles around the capital. No rubber, no oil equals no enemy tanks facing your forces.

	21-05-2002 03:44									#3
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I love island hopping.

Something I like to do when playing on my Europe map is to play Britain, and build a huge galley navy and go around colonizing valuable land. In addition to that, it gives your army great flexibility, being able to land and embark whereever you want, or retreat quickly in case a large enemy force shows up. However, that's on maps where there's lots of water.

	21-05-2002 03:52									#4
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A navy is important for expoloration. Being the first person to discover the other conitinent (on a continenal map), or other islands (on island maps) will give you a crucial edge in tec. and trade...
Also, durring war, Sea troops let you open up extra fronts, and that can often mean the difference between me invading him, and him invading me...

Durring Later wars, carriers are the ideal way to move bombers around. I love being able to smack my opponent's infrustructure around with bombardment...

Ultimatly without sea power, my game is no where near as strong as it might be...

But then, I never play on pangea maps, so my perspective might be scewed...

	21-05-2002 04:43									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Depends on how much water the map has, as well as the size of my initial landmass.

On island maps, I'll be going for an island-hopping approach, and build a large navy to grab the islands quickly.

On continent maps, it depends on the size of my "continent". Smaller continent means that I'll be building a sizable navy. Larger continent means that I'll be building a small navy that's just large enough to transport enough troops to carry out a D-Day landing, or to transport enough settlers and defenders to gain a sizable amount of territory before others get to the unpopulated landmass.

As for Pangaea maps, I don't bother with a navy at all.

	21-05-2002 05:56									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Navy is very important, you need to explore to find other civs so you cant rade for those extra luxuries. In my latest game i've got 6 on my own, but the others are not on the continent, so I had to go overseas to get them. with marketplaces and other improvements, the last few luxuries makes lots of extra happy citizens so I make sure I get them. It's worth shelling out lots of cash for them.

About the corruption, how does that formula work? I also find my overseas "colonies" almost useless even with courthouses and all that other stuff. I find myself having to rushbuy the first ten improvements before they get self-sufficient. It makes overseas invasions very unattractive, as no doubt, they are IRL.

I do keep a navy to interdict invading forces though. they can't invade if they can't land.

also, before railroads, navies can help with shortcuts for long land routes. (btw, I increased sea movement in my mod)

	21-05-2002 06:45									#7
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On a large-continent map, even if you OWN 1 of 2 continents, you'll want a navy to use as pickets so you have advance warning to an invasion. And some heavy naval units too.

If you share the continent with others, it at least helps to use your navy to scout out the shoreline of any conflict that's going on.

BTW, I am referring to large maps (or LARGER).

JB

	21-05-2002 08:45									#8
	Got spare money?

I like my subs long hard and full of seamen

	21-05-2002 08:47									#9
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Too true

	21-05-2002 09:56									#10
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Even though I don't find them super useful, I always build a few ships. I find them very fun! They are units I enjoy having ... battleships are kind of prestige units.

The purpose of a navy is to keep the seas open for your transport, and to close the seas for your enemy's transport.

For keeping the seas open for yourself, a large navy is unnecesary. This is because, in Civ, there are very few of your ships using the seas. Unlike all the merchant shipping and supply shipping in the real world, in Civ there is only your stack of transports. Thus generally all you have to protect navally is your stack of transports. This means in the entire world, all you have to protect is a single tile of ocean. If it is a very long voyage, and you have more than just a single stack of transports, then you have more tiles to protect. Also, sending ships for surgical strikes to hit resources near the coast adds more tiles to protect ... still, this will only be like 2 or 3 stacks, so only 2 or 3 tiles to defend. So for this purpose you only need a few ships, like 2 to 6.

For closing the seas to your enemies, more ships would probably be needed, if their route is not obvious. Although nothing gives a bigger reward than sinking a transport full of troops, I don't think I would try to intercept transports. The coast is too big and the sea to open ... it would require too many ships to really catch transports. So I still wouldn't build many ships. However, I could be wrong on this point; I almost never have to fear sea invasion ... instead I'm the one doing it.

Other than this there aren't any reasons I would build ships. Bombardment is not worth the cost of a large navy to me. Exploration is always done by buying world maps for me.

Navies are a lot of fun to me. They are cool units. But for serious purposes, all I think I need are a few ships to cover my transport stacks. So total seriously needed navy is around 2 to 6 ships for me ... but somehow I always manage to build some for fun!

	21-05-2002 10:03									#11
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In the industrial and modern age, when my productivity is high, I find it is easier to stop seaborne invasions at sea than at land. I utilize ironclads, then later battleships, to provide a defensive screen and ward off enemy fleets. A navy is also a necessity because the AI usually has a habit of massing frigates off my shores and blasting all the improvements of every coastal tile... so I usually end up in pitched naval battles around the early industrial age to push them off my shores. Fortunately, I often get ironclads by the time their attack force reaches me, so I have the upper hand in power if not in numbers.

	21-05-2002 10:31									#12
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The uselessness of navies is my biggest remaining complaint against Civ III. A powerful navy without an army to match gains a player nothing. Even if the enemy has 30 battleships, a landing escort of five combat ships is probably enough to land a massive D-day style invasion force of ten transports. Why? Because, the ocean is large and the enemy can not mass all their ships where you choose to make the landing. If they look like they may, a player can choose a new landing site. Soon the enemy will be bored of waiting for the invasion and send their fleet to bombard your roads and opening their shoreline to invasion.

I have several suggestions:
1) Piracy: allow ships to pirate gold when adjacent to enemy cities. Implement this with a new button, similar to the pillage button. Coastal Fortresses can repel pirates with a successful shot. Submarines can pirate without fear of Coastal Fortresses. Privateers can pirate under hidden flag. Piracy by ships other than Privateers is an act of war (like pillaging). A successful pirate mission steals 1 to 10 gold from the enemy treasury. This may be painful once the Wall Street wonder is available (right around the time Privateers come on line). With one bold stroke, navies become a way to get gold and Privateers, Submarines and Coastal Fortresses, become useful instead of useless eye candy.

2) Blockade: allow combat ships to blockade movement with a command.
When an enemy ship enters the zone of control, do some sort of check based on combat values and experience. If the blockading ship is successful, maybe have two levels of success, the best is the enemy ship ends it turn in the adjacent square, a lower level means an extra movement point is used up. If the blockading ship is weaker or less experienced, the odds of success are lower. Blockading in an enemy culture zone is an act of war. Blockading in open seas or friendly territory or with Privateers is not.

3) Increase the movement of modern naval units by one or two. Once railroads are built, navies are ploddingly slow.

4) Disrupt fishing: allow combat ships to disrupt ocean food production in enemy cities to starve out enemy cities. Piracy and fishing boat poaching are much more realistic than bombarding roads and mines and will make a powerful navy mean a lot more.

I realize that this is too much to expect in a patch, but perhaps in the expansion pack.

	21-05-2002 10:45									#13
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Again, the simplicity of Civ III strikes again. Warfare of all types is incredibly ... not complex. I could go on for ages about how they could/should change things to make it more realistic, but I won't bore you all.

	21-05-2002 11:40									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by BillChin The uselessness of navies is my biggest remaining complaint against Civ III.

A navy is a tool with limited utility, but utility nonetheless.

The way to make a navy _really_ usefull is to give it somthing to do at all times. The way to do that is to make piracy possible at all times. The suggestions you make are good ones, but I don't know if they go far enough. For instance:

First, durring trade negotiations, make the two sides assign actual trade routs: Ships leave City A and go to City B, then hit City C, where the goods are taken possetion of. Make this Trade rout visible to both trade partners, as well as somthing learnable with spies/diplomats. Any time a designated pirate unit (either player or Barbarian) crosses this line, (weather they know it or not), the unit can roll to see if it is successfull. Odds go up if the pirate knows that the rout is there.

Voila! Now you need a navy to protect sea commerce...

	21-05-2002 13:40									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I always build a defensive navy, i.e. a bunch of battleships to fight this annoying bombardement of my resource tiles and coastal roads by the AI. They also fight the transport/defender shuttles that bring sabotage units to my land (I refuse to call this an invasion).

I build an offensive navy (transports, carriers, more battleships), when I play with continents and plan to invade, otherwise not. It is usually concentrated in a few navy bases, with the appropriate landing troups available via railroads.

I try to settle and take all islands within bomber range from my land. If I plan to invade, I also try to take such islands near other countries and continents.

	21-05-2002 13:44									#16
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As many Battleships as it takes to rule the waves. As many Carriers as are needed to support the Battleships and a large invasion. As many Destroyers as are needed to provide escorts for the Carriers and the Transports. A few subs and nuc subs cause they're cool (and GP will beat me up if I don't).

	21-05-2002 13:51									#17
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BTW. Marines rock. They are related to Navy, right?

Latest invasion. 5 BBs bombarded. 2 Carriers worth of air bombed. 3 enemy Infantry defending size 8 city in hills. 6 of 16 Marines engaged. 3 dead Marines. 3 dead Infantry. AI city adjacent to only AI Uranium is mine. Ha ha ha. Take that Abe!

But, seriously. That's 2 to 1 odds took the city. Against Infantry fortified in size 7 city (after bombardment) on hills. The jar heads rock!

	21-05-2002 15:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Again, the simplicity of Civ III strikes again. Warfare of all types is incredibly ... not complex. I could go on for ages about how they could/should change things to make it more realistic, but I won't bore you all.

Face it. Firaxis' masters, Infogrames, had them DUMB DOWN the game to the level of a sixth grader. Everything related to warfare, especially naval warfare, is highly simplistic - and simpleminded.

It means NOTHING to me what kind of crappy new cutesy UU's they think of for an XP if they don't improve the system.

	21-05-2002 15:36									#19
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Coracle Face it. Firaxis' masters, Infogrames, had them DUMB DOWN the game to the level of a sixth grader. Everything related to warfare, especially naval warfare, is highly simplistic - and simpleminded.

Sadly, yes. It was them trying to appeal to a wider audience than just the diehards. Its dumbfounding how combat is when you've got spearmen running around beating tanks, and frigates beating ironclads. Not only did they make it too simplistic, but they made it unrealistic as well. But that is for another discussion.

quote: It means NOTHING to me what kind of crappy new cutesy UU's they think of for an XP if they don't improve the system.

Then don't buy the XP and stop whining. Its that simple.

	21-05-2002 18:55									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

i mainly only need a navy for defensive purposes. the friggin' AI bombing your improvements from the sea is not cool. nothing a few battleships can't fix, though. i try to have battleships stationed around the perimeter of my continent (although subs would be better). the bastards have snuck up on me too many times.

also, it is really, really satisfying to destroy an AI transport containing 8 modern armor units.

	21-05-2002 20:20									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

a lot of people build ships when they are getting bombarded from the sea. This would be a good reason to build ships IMO, except that I have so many idol workers by the time I'm getting bombarded I don't need to worry. My slaves repair the coastal land as fast as the AI bombs it. Sure I may lose some food or a mine for a turn or two, but plant units on your resources and they take the pounding and never die from the bombardment.

	22-05-2002 16:29									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hm, I just don't like the psychological effects of the AI bombing MY terrain. So it is worth the effort to first use artillery and bombers to soften their BB's up and then finish them with a few BB's yourself!

Also, I usually play on continents and a huge map, so if I want to harm the other civs on that far away continent I need a large navy! By the way I noticed that in civ3 when the map generator makes a continent world there are NO small islands at all! I liked to occupy small islands in civ2 to make a strategic base. From that city/island I began an invasion. After using an Airport to stack a lot of units in it. But that has changed....

	22-05-2002 16:51									#23
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I've modded all my naval units to try to make them more useful/enjoyable. What I did was:

1. Change movement costs as follows: Coast - 1, Sea - 2, Ocean - 3.
2. Doubled movement for all ancient and middle era naval units.
3. Changed industrial/modern era naval units (except the iron clad - I just doubled the movement on those) to treat all terrain as roads.
4. Changed the nuke sub to carry four tactical missiles, and drastically increased the lethality (lethal vs. land & sea) and range of the cruise missile.
5. Increased carrier transport capacity to six planes.

Oh, and I gave all air power lethal bombardment vs. sea units.

Unfortunately, the first game I've played with all the changes in place I'm way ahead in techs, so I haven't gotten to see if the AI can handle the changes with any intelligence.

	22-05-2002 18:19									#24
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Navies are useful, depending on the map. (Who would build a navy on a pangea map?) I think Navys should have something to at least sort of keep up with the railroad advancements on land. (Although giving a unit too much movement will make combat very avoidable).


Here's another question-

Has anyone used navies to succesfully blockade and weaken opponents?

	22-05-2002 19:04									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

Obviously, it all depends on your map. On an island map, you need boats. On a pangea map, you don't need boats at all.

I like to use modern navies for bombardment. Especially if I'm ahead of the AI in tech. In the water, they are safer than land artillery, granted at a higher shield cost.

	22-05-2002 19:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by campmajor! By the way I noticed that in civ3 when the map generator makes a continent world there are NO small islands at all!

I always play middle continent world. I notice only 1-2 islands. I would like continents plus 5-10 islands. I don't know if this is an option at the beginning world mass choices. Every time I think I have discovered an island, it is always totally submerged.

Current game, there is only 1 island and 3 continents. A few more islands would definitely keep the game more interesting and challenging.

	22-05-2002 20:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew Cory First, durring trade negotiations, make the two sides assign actual trade routs: Ships leave City A and go to City B, then hit City C, where the goods are taken possetion of. Make this Trade rout visible to both trade partners, as well as somthing learnable with spies/diplomats. Any time a designated pirate unit (either player or Barbarian) crosses this line, (weather they know it or not), the unit can roll to see if it is successfull. Odds go up if the pirate knows that the rout is there. Voila! Now you need a navy to protect sea commerce...

If done without making any other changes, there is little possibility that a player can protect a long sea route. What can a player do? Line up 50 combat ships along the entire length of the trade route? In your proposal all a privateer has to do is cross the line to pirate. There is virtually no defense against this and would take an extremely large navy to prevent. A player must find the privateer in a large ocean, and then chase it down and sink it. These are non-trivial tasks even if a player has a 3-to-1 naval advantage.

In contrast, by having piracy occur next to port cities, a player can counter by building coastal fortresses and have a handful of patrol ships and artillery or bombers. Locating the pirates is easy enough, and bringing ships to bear is also straightforward. With supporting air or artillery, a modest navy can do a good job. Clever pirates also have a good chance by massing and using hit-and-run tactics (what pirates are known for).

The existing rules only allow navies to destroy roads or try to bombard cities. These are annoying, but of no benefit to the attacking player unless they land troops. Pirating gold can fuel the war economy to buy more units. Now that is something useful and would prompt me to build more naval units. My piracy suggestion also opens up the possibility of a large fleet of pirate ships profiting while other civs are at war with each other. Now that would be fun (though not for the other civs).

As it is now, navies are mainly for show and for ego. A good player can complete games with any type of victory on any map with only a handful of combat ships. Tranports are another story.

	22-05-2002 20:16									#28
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How about a new special unit "Pirate" who can only cross seas in pirate vessels. One of actions of pirate would be to "steal resource". Should be able to steal gold or any luxury resource. Just as it takes X turns to mine resource, it should take X turns to steal resource. Then if resource is successfully stolen, pirate could carry stolen resource to new tile and complete action event "plant resource".

With this valuable game addition, players might actually need a navy rather than just having a few ships to move around.

	23-05-2002 03:26									#29
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duplicate post

Last edited by MosesPresley on 23-05-2002 at 03:42

	23-05-2002 03:34									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Has anyone used navies to succesfully blockade and weaken opponents?

I always have a strong navy on continent maps. I use them to defend against enemy raiders that harass my shore developments. I find that very annoying. I also use them to blockade smaller opponents or individual cities that are under siege. In that respect they supplement any trade embargoes. They are also an extremely important part of any amphibious invasion plan. If I control the seas, my game goes easier.